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 The Determination

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Xasomur
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PostSubject: The Determination   Tue 22 Dec 2009, 5:35 am

First topic message reminder :

Clan mates, friends, brothers! We are standing at the crossroads. Now it will decide, how ATS is going on. We need you now more than ever. More than a week ago, when the server shut down and the forum was gone. More than back, when we held meetings. More than throughout the elections. We need you now. And we need to stand upright, for that what we really want.

This, my friends, and I am sorry for that, this is gonna be a long long post. But I recommend you all to read it, because it is important. I try to make it most readable as I can. I will make some visual effects and summaries, so that u will be able to pick out the most important parts.

~What happened?~

Last week the server shut down, and the forum were deleted. Outcast was gone. And it seemed he would never come back. We used this opportunity and we made a new start. We put our hearts and our brains together to revive the spirit and the values of ATS. And we did great work. We worked out a new system of leadership, where we all can decide now, where we all share our opinions and our power. We rebuilt a dream.
This is all now endangered to get lost again.
Outcast is back. This morning about 4 am European time he was on the server and invited few of the ATS people to listen to his announcement.
I will now here summarize the conclusion and will take a closer look later on:
  • Outcast is back to overtake the control of ATS again.
  • o.o and fod are going to be treated as enemies again.
  • older members have higher importance and the only voice in ATS.
  • even inactives are more important than newer ones.

And another point I will illuminate later on.
But here comes the hard stuff: Why did he leave then? It was a farce. He never really left. He just wanted to see what happens. “To find out the most loyal members.”


~What does that mean?~
That means several things. That does tell us a lot about outcast. And it tells us a lot about the close future. It tells us that we are on the crossroads.
But I tell you: We are gonna decide which way we go. We don’t have to go where outcast wants us to go.
But step by step.

What would that mean for the clan: It would all go back. It would all happen again. The forum is gonna be set back, the server is. All our work is then gone. All our discussion is then useless. All the visions of a new brighter era are then destroyed.
No council. No public votes for the next admins and moderators. No representatives in the council. Only those “old” ATS in council. And because they are all inactive most of time, it’s only Outcast in Council. He will say who is gonna be banned. And he will ban many friends of ATS and he will even ban further ATS. Like Dudeman or Referee. His attitude will make that people cant stay in ATS, like all those people who left before and came back now. We will get in conflict with o.o again and with fod. We will all again live in fear, without being able to say our true opinion, because we are afraid outcast will do something against us. And you, as a newer member, will always be a member of a lower class in relation to those oldies.

But this isn’t all. This recent occurings tell us a lot about Outcast. And they convinced me finally and totally that this is nothing we need or can bare.


~The Method~
Let me first say some few words about that what Outcast did: He shut the server and the forum down… to see what happens? Who is loyal ATS?
Its like throwing a baby into the djungle and if it survives its good education? My question is, who is loyal then? The parent, leaving the child in the wilderness?
This wasn’t a step a leader should go. It is a sign of megalomania, doesn’t know his own borders, what to do, what is allowed and when to listen to the members needs.
This was a prove that Outcast finally is out of control! He didn’t have to leave. Not shutting all down. Not leaving us the server and so on. Now coming back like nothings happens is mad. So clear and easy is it. It is mad.


~The announcement~
Let me come net to the discussion we held yesterday, which was no discussion.
He first talked hours to Vort who played the middle man. Than me and kernow were added. And Outcast started to explain. But he was not coming to the point… we only discussed over minor things.
Like that he doesn’t like ajunta, and that he had to ignore him and herny…
The most important thing is, beside the content I listed above, his way of treating us. He ignored us. We listened to him and tried to be diplomatic. But he didn’t take any contra. We told him, we made up a new system. He just said, that the ranks stay the same. I said, that the ranks are same, we have new system for ATS in general, and he said, that the ATS values stay the same. And as I finally said, that we have a democracy now, and not longer one leader he just said that I was confused. He was ignoring everything me and kernow were saying. And this is what he does: Ignoring all those arguments against him and getting his head through.


~Generally~
Of course the recent happenings aren’t the only reason why we definitely have to stick to the new system.
As I said: this is just the top of the mountain. Outcast is ignoring the members, especially the newer ones, since long time now. Many people left ATS because of that. Because of Outcast. And it will happen again, as Outcast seems to get more and more crazy.
He also said, that he doesn’t care about the amount of people for or against something. But he misses. If all those, who are ATS, are against him, he definitely has to think about it. He cannot say 2+2 = 5 and saying, that’s right, doesn’t matter what the world says. Maybe it deserves respect, but it does not deserve leadership, as a leader has to see clear. And he doesn’t even see his own members.
Next point: He says, he wants only fun play in jk2. And as u see people leaving ATS because they haven’t fun anymore, and people hiding their opinion because of fear, there is no fun too.


~What to do now?~
Outcast is a threat for the new system and the spirit of ATS, when he is leader again. ATS will be like a zombie again.
We have to stand together, clarify what we are belonging to. To ATS… and not to Outcast. We have to stay here on this forum and on our new server. So take this great news: The new ATS Server will be there very soon. (And we still have the fod server, they are supporting us in not getting ruled again by Outcast)
U may try to talk with outcast, but u will see that he is ignoring your arguments, and that he won tlisten to u, and he will only try to get u on his side. so keep in mind what u want, dont lose ur ground!
We are all sorry that this ends like this, so violently, but if he would just has left we could have honored his image... but as he now tops his old megalomianac attitude. And as we cannot talk to him we gotta do what we can, and when it is just ignoring him.
He is praising that every action has its reaction. And he was always the one to react in his own way to thing ppl around him did. Now it is time to let him see and feel that his actions have consequences too.


Outcast is back. But we wont let him steel ATS.
We are standing at the crossroads. And now its our time to decide.
And to those who still entertain doubts: just read the other topics. how the system is working... and the argues with sylba. This new era is what people want and need. You will finally see.

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Last edited by Xasomur on Sun 27 Jun 2010, 9:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
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SyLba



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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Wed 23 Dec 2009, 7:22 am

Is this THE NEW WAY LEARNED? PEOPLE INSULT?? OLD MEMBERS AND ESPECIALLY OUTCAST?
LEARN TO RESPECT AND DONT ABUSE THE NAME OF ATS AS I SAID GO AWAY TO DO THOSE THINGS WITH OTHER NAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ATS IS ONE OF HIM MAN HE IS A BIG PART OF IT .

YOU!!!! ARE THE STEALERS DO YOU UNDERSTAND???!?!? ATS BELONGS MORE TO MAX GICH AND OUTCAST IT IS THEIM THEY DECIDE IF IT STAYS OR NOT BECAUSE THEY MADE IT!!!!!
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BlackKnight
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Wed 23 Dec 2009, 7:26 am

Sylba..Were not in the middle ages where OLD ONES were respected just for being old...A so called old memeber should be respected for his/her actions for what he does to help to explain they must show experience of leadership..and arguing respect its not experience..Sylba if you call youserlf an old member of ATS then,, why dont you helo with your experience to revive the place in wich one u say youre old?...Want respect..show us your experience and ill respect u mroe than u think..like i did with Outcast...before he became a crazy egocentric guy...thats why sometimes i talk bad about him..cuase i was hurt bi him..he betrayed the respect and the trhust i gave to him...show me u wont be like that, show us..u will be different..show us will be a good leader and we will respect you for sure..
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BlackKnight
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Wed 23 Dec 2009, 7:34 am

AND FOR LAST TIME MAN..ATS IS NOT FORM MAX,GICH OR OUTCAST they made it..but u know what??..a clan is nothing without its members ^.^
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Xemnas
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Wed 23 Dec 2009, 7:38 am

Aww dudez and i already buyed a server ... Sad well then i sell it to my friend (darn)
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SyLba



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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Wed 23 Dec 2009, 7:47 am

Guys it is a fact you are just Abusing the name ATS.......
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BlueNinja
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Wed 23 Dec 2009, 8:12 am

SyLba, I want deeply to be your friend, but you are WRONG. We are not abusing it, we are keeping it alive. Allianza or Alliance, it means that everybody is together, not divided. With Outcast the clan was divided because of his methods and his ways, he was wrong, and so are you. ATS was thriving before when I first came to this clan a long, long time ago. But Outcast would get worse and worse as time went on, and this is a prime example. Does this seem like a type of thing the original Outcast would do? It certainly doesn't to me.
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Ajunta Pall
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Wed 23 Dec 2009, 9:15 am

Rah, and stop telling empty sentences, just tell us why at least.
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DoZeR~



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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Wed 23 Dec 2009, 9:21 am

el nuevo ats es una verga y te equivocas Skam maximus si tiene poder despues de todo el esta alojando e lservidor Wink
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Wed 23 Dec 2009, 10:05 am

BlueNinja wrote:
SyLba, I want deeply to be your friend, but you are WRONG. We are not abusing it, we are keeping it alive. Allianza or Alliance, it means that everybody is together, not divided. With Outcast the clan was divided because of his methods and his ways, he was wrong, and so are you. ATS was thriving before when I first came to this clan a long, long time ago. But Outcast would get worse and worse as time went on, and this is a prime example. Does this seem like a type of thing the original Outcast would do? It certainly doesn't to me.

yes... thats why the theme song of today (european time) was undivided by bon jovi Razz

sylba still didnt read those things we told him... -.-

my internet sucks today... dont wonder if i somewhen stop being onlne ^^

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Kernow Pilgrim
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Wed 23 Dec 2009, 10:21 am

Herny told me some intresting stuff - he sees ATS as a family and Outcast and Max are integral members of that family. I'm just thinkin that historical players in the clan can learn that much from them. Friendship binds Sylba and Herny close to Max and outcast.

I'm just lookin at the other side of the debate for everyone! xD

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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Wed 23 Dec 2009, 10:40 am

SyLba wrote:
Guys it is a fact you are just Abusing the name ATS.......
SyLba, there will always be younger people who - under the cloak of anonymity that the internet grants us all - will speak with foul language and insult others. The older we get, the more we see the people behind the actions. Regardless of their skill in diplomacy, the younger members' hearts are in the right place for the clan. They just get frustrated and have outbursts of profanity. Because ATS is about respect, we will be having many discussions working on people being kind to everyone, including their enemies.

For now, let's put it this way: A month ago, two months ago, six months ago, a year ago.. there were members in ATS who used this language. No one told Outcast or Maximus or Gich that they were abusing the name of ATS because of other members who used disrespectful language. These kinds of insults always occur online. We will strive to help our members grow out of this kind of hurtful language, but it is quite obviously an unfair argument for you to apply it to us now but not back when ATS was what you think it should be.

Xasomur, Phoenix, Mereel, BlackKnight, and others have made good points. They've put their reasons forward for why we should continue ATS. It all centers around one thing: a clan is a community. How long must the old leaders be absent until the new ones are legitimate? If the founders left for two years, then came back, should everyone just hand things back over to them? TIME is an arbitrary line to draw. At some point you must rely on your values, and decide what is right. I understand that you think ATS is a group of people led by its founders. We think it's an entire community. To give up the name ATS is to undermine our own values. However, if the community decides it wants to change its name, then that is fine. But ATS was, is, and will be a clan for community and teamwork. That doesn't mean that the people in ATS will hold those values; if Outcast and Max take over again that won't be the case. The ATS I'm referring to is an idea, not a name. WE are ATS, and if we change our name, it will only be a superficial change. We are still the group of people we refer to when we now say ATS. So now, you must decide whether you care about ATS the idea and the community, or ATS the hollow shell whose significance goes no further than simply its name and its founders.

Personally, the only reason I even entertain the idea of changing this community's name is for the sake of the regret I feel that the old members like Outcast, Maximus, SyLba, Gich, etc. may feel betrayed by the community's taking hold of their destiny. If you had all vanished off the face of the Earth (which I'm glad you have not), we would keep the name ATS without so much as an afterthought. It is a testament to the kinship we feel with many of you that some of us consider changing our name.

As Ajunta has said, perhaps we would be more willing to change our name if you gave us a reason instead of empty rhetoric.
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Phoenix
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Wed 23 Dec 2009, 12:11 pm

NickdeClaw wrote:
ATS was, is, and will be a clan for community and teamwork. That doesn't mean that the people in ATS will hold those values; if Outcast and Max take over again that won't be the case. The ATS I'm referring to is an idea, not a name. WE are ATS, and if we change our name, it will only be a superficial change. We are still the group of people we refer to when we now say ATS. So now, you must decide whether you care about ATS the idea and the community, or ATS the hollow shell whose significance goes no further than simply its name and its founders.

Karma for nick this is a great point.

Yes we are ATS, Yes we are passionate about ATS. ATS is a cool tag however what more does it mean? What matters is not the three simple letters A,T and S. What matters is the connection the term implies, Its a symbol of our bonds of unity, friendship and loyalty. However this exsists amongst us largly anyways.

So yes ATS is important and yes we want to remain as ATS. I think what nick is trying to say that if we change our name it isnt the end of the world. In our hearts we will still be ATS, even if our name is different. Changing the tag does not change the bonds and friendship we have formed, and it does not distroy our community. Put simply will be ATS under a different name.
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BlackKnight
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Wed 23 Dec 2009, 3:15 pm

Herny...te tengo malas noticis..Maximus no tiene poder alguno..Outcast es el que sabe dodne esta alojado els ervidor nadie de ellos lo aloja e sun servidor comrpado del cual naaadie tiene los datos porque Outcas se los ha negado hasta al mismo maximus..
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Vort
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Wed 23 Dec 2009, 3:22 pm

BlackKnight made it clear to me that he liked the name very much, and I respect him for that. However, we must also look at the features that make up ATS. Its the idea, passion, ambition, loyalty, unity, bonds, etc.. that make up ATS. Now Nick made a good point that there is a different between ATS the idea or ATS the name.

I saw both and I looked at the side of the idea and the side of only an empty name/title. I believe that because of our strong unity, we were able to make ATS a better name. The ATS philosophy that we followed has pulled through. I know this for a fact because we have been accepted by clans who did not respect us, like o.o or fod. Now we have those respect.

However, I also looked at the side of ATS the name. I am a realist. ATS to me = ATS. The symbolism are the people who are in ATS. Why do I say this? Because we are the people who create an image for ATS. We follow rules to make the game fun for other people. It doesn't matter if our name is ATS or UGLYS, the point is that we are what makes us, us... Not the clan name.

So that's why I've been in the middle of wanting to change title and keeping the title.

-Vort


Last edited by Vort on Wed 23 Dec 2009, 3:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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BlackKnight
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Wed 23 Dec 2009, 3:24 pm

mmm Youre right Vort...mmm nice explanation..the essence of a symbol is what it makes it strong not just the symbol itself...very nice Very Happy
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Kernow Pilgrim
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Wed 23 Dec 2009, 3:50 pm

I like to keep the name because it reinforces clan ownership and detracts from us trying to prove that ATS is healed. I want to show many how good ATS is now, like a reformed clan! However Vort is see your point.

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Battledroidlover
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Wed 23 Dec 2009, 7:57 pm

When outcast left...we had to make a"New"sort of clan......it was VERY frustraighting.........and if outcast comes back.....he may try to "Test" our loyalty again -_-
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Xemnas
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Wed 23 Dec 2009, 10:28 pm

It is just the question ...DO WE WANT THAT????
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Ajunta Pall
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Wed 23 Dec 2009, 11:03 pm

Vort, i just want to add : we didn't earn only fod and o.o respect, but also :
eviL , Flaw , i'm , BS
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BlueNinja
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Thu 24 Dec 2009, 12:06 am

LOL, we are just completely gaining a new reputation all over Jk2 without Outcast.
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Vort
Jedi Master
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Thu 24 Dec 2009, 12:07 am

Ajunta Pall wrote:
Vort, i just want to add : we didn't earn only fod and o.o respect, but also :
eviL , Flaw , i'm , BS

Thanks Ajunta pirat
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Battledroidlover
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Thu 24 Dec 2009, 1:20 am

Bad news:cibbi was on the server the other day and so was herny,gich and outcast (the real one) outcast took cibbi to the office and was talking to him....outcast said "I have a BIG suprise for ATS Smile im worried about what that "suprise" is.......
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Phoenix
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Thu 24 Dec 2009, 1:53 am

Mmm cibbi is two faced. I was on server when cibbi was trying to get a meeting with outcast in the office but outcast ignored him. So it must have been after i left that this took place.
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Abrum



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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Thu 24 Dec 2009, 3:56 am

I miss our old forums and server... but if you... we can pull of this new system and keep our members... Our rules... I bet we'll be a great clan.
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Battledroidlover
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PostSubject: Re: The Determination   Thu 24 Dec 2009, 4:03 am

abrum....with outcast here we wont be a "Great" clan because all the other clans will hate us!
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