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 change needed :)

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solid snake
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PostSubject: change needed :)   Sat 05 Jun 2010, 10:29 pm

well now co we have our tag ready this has to be fixed Razz on portal page there is that torch of fair play and there reads ]=ATS=[ on tag place should that be fixed????? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Sun 06 Jun 2010, 3:43 am

Ah yes it does, on the torch of fairplay at the bottom of the portal page. Maybe we should get rid of that image all together. Its outcasts. :/
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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Sun 06 Jun 2010, 3:47 am

It's not Outcast's, Aju made it after we reformed. We do need a new one, though, it's been bothering me for awhile.
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Sun 06 Jun 2010, 7:35 am

SoL is gettin like Outcast clan so, dont care about it
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Phoenix
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Sun 06 Jun 2010, 7:58 am

SoL is getting like outcasts clan??? How do u figure that bax? Neutral
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Ajunta Pall
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Sun 06 Jun 2010, 9:37 am

like everyone does. You create rules to allow what was called abuse before in outcast's clan.
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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Sun 06 Jun 2010, 1:21 pm

I never thought Outcast abused because he used admin. I thought he abused because he was unwilling to talk with people to come to a reasonable consensus. His word was law no matter what the circumstances. Now, we allow many people to add their voice, and we try to take a reasonable approach to a given issue based on the various inputs.

If you think that rules are strictly equivalent to abuse, you are a fool.

Name your grievances, Ajunta. I guarantee you that they will all have to do with individual admins' interpretation of the rules, not the rules themselves. Everyone is trying to do the right thing, humans are fallible, and you are being unreasonably insulting most of the time you talk to people in this clan. Stop visiting the forums if all you are going to do is insult people who are trying to make others happy.

I consider you a friend, but you're pushing it. My friends don't repeatedly come to tell me that I'm an abusive, corrupt person just because they disagree with the way that I try to achieve fairness.

Your words, and similar words from a select few who share your views, make me wonder if Outcast did indeed start ATS with justice and fairness both in mind and in practice, and not just some twisted version of justice, no: I mean the same type of justice we created SoL to achieve. Perhaps so many people were unfairly verbally abusive to him and his clan that he eventually was forced to stop listening to them and stick with his decisions, because no matter what he did, if he was trying to protect people, he would be called an abuser.

It is not we who create abuse, it is you. Keep it up Ajunta, and you just may create another Outcast.
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Pipsquid
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Sun 06 Jun 2010, 1:39 pm

Don't give him bad karma for saying something he, and not just him, think. I personally think this also, your clan is becoming ALOT like outcast. You're the ones that create abuse since YOU have admin, YOU "lead" the clan, YOU control EVERYTHING.


YOU ARE THE CORRUPT.
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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Sun 06 Jun 2010, 1:46 pm

You don't have to play on our server if you don't want to be bound by the rules. We control everything because it's OUR SERVER. This clan exists to provide the type of atmosphere that the clan wants. That atmosphere is a calm, respectful one. This server does NOT exist so that anyone can do whatever they want on it.

Breaking the rules is abuse. Using admin in a way that is not warranted by the rules is abuse. Using admin to enforce the rules is NOT abuse.

If you want to play on a server where you can do whatever you want, then start paying the money to host a server and go do it on your own. We provide a service here, and players who utilize it agree to follow certain rules.

Mistakes happen, and that is where we differ from Outcast: we are willing to talk about them respectfully. However, you will find that most of the people who claim 'abuse' are unwilling to speak respectfully. Even if they are willing to speak respectfully in the beginning, if the clan as a whole disagrees with them, they decide that it is abuse.

You guys are young, so maybe you have an unwarranted sense of self-entitlement. You will be surprised when you enter the real world. You don't actually own everything, and your opinion is not absolute.

All we ask is that people be nice to each other. It says something about you more than it does about us if you take offense to that notion.

Also Pip, I didn't give him bad karma for stating his mind, I gave him bad karma for insulting unnecessarily. I could give you a million ways he could have stated the same thing in a way that is actually constructive, rather than only destructive.
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Kernow Pilgrim
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Sun 06 Jun 2010, 2:10 pm

It is plain to see who here is just insulting without argument - Thus it is plain to see who REALLY is acting like Outcast.

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Pipsquid
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Sun 06 Jun 2010, 2:37 pm

...And I insulted?

I don't give what you do on the server, almost all servers are the same. I'm talking about the CLAN itself since i was in it for some time and always gave it a chance to see if it would change, but apparently it won't. I'm not saying that you are outcast by breaking rules, im saying it because its a handful of you who make choices that maybe other members don't agree with. What you say goes.
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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Sun 06 Jun 2010, 3:29 pm

What choices are those? I think it's more like the majority of us make decisions that a handful of us don't agree with. That's democracy. I put up with George Bush for 8 years, now Republicans have to put up with Obama for at least 4 years.
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Ajunta Pall
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Sun 06 Jun 2010, 9:25 pm

INDEED.
What you created also different from ATS is that the council isn't choosen by the leader but by the players, and temporarly. Thus, power is also in member's hands, as they choose who they trust the most to lead the clan temporarly.
Those are the good points of SoL. That's all.
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Mon 07 Jun 2010, 12:35 am

PIPSQUID! WHO THE fly a kite ASKED FOR YOUR OPINION? Aju and pip, your not in our clan, so you have no bearing on the decisions that we make, or the rules we uphold.

If you havent got anything good to say to us, then dont fly a kite say it. The simple fact is that all of the people who claim that SoL are abusers, are the ones who abuse and commit unreasonable acts themselves. Its a twist of irony that people come to our server and try to cause discord and chaos, then complain that we are the arseholes when we stop them! Its the pot calling the kettle black!

At the end of the day, your a scripter. So straight away your in defiance of the clans rules. Which is why we think less of your opinion, in fact no, we dont even require your opinion. If you dont like our server then dont come to it, simple. As long as you use kickscripts, i have no repect for you, nor do i care about your opinion.

And this clan is based upon the members needs and requirements more than anything, they make the clan. For you to come here and say that the admins and council ar corrupt and only look after themselves, is clearly unreasonable on your part. You are grossly misinformed. Mad

You give me just one example of where the council has made a policy that the member dont agree with!
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Ajunta Pall
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Mon 07 Jun 2010, 1:00 am

Lol, first i don't ks, then second, i'm free to give my opinion anywhere, since i don't insult no one, third, i never try to bring chaos.
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Mon 07 Jun 2010, 1:10 am

i wasnt talking to you...
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Pipsquid
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Mon 07 Jun 2010, 4:13 am

I haven't been scripting for a while now so you can shut your yap. I can give my opinion anywhere the fly a kite i want. Just like aju said, i don't make chaos ,or whatever the fly a kite you said, in server.
I probably stated my argument bad so here it goes again. I didn't mean it that way about the handful of people and stuff. I mean that there is a tiny group of you, don't wanna give names, that make choices. Every single time.
This is how it works:
A certain person from that group proposes something. Then the members of the clan have to vote if they want it or not.
Thing is, the members never to propose anything.

When we where uniting the clan again after the fall of ATS, all day long we would make shitty group conversations on msn. that little group i was talking about was there. They were the ones to say things, we just got to vote on it. Nothing more.

Also phoenix, know the facts before you speak.
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Mon 07 Jun 2010, 7:21 am

maybe we should listen what they got to say, and look at that accuse from more than our angle. maybe we should again, like when sol started, give something about the opinion of the others.
right now, i only see how sol is creating another bubble. like the ats bubble. and we close ourselves from any other point of view than our own. and that we arent considering other arguments than our own. and that we cant even for hypotetical discussions leave our standpoint. this is what created ats as it is.

i guess we could really learn from that what they are saying, if we would give a damn what they are saying. i can remember how we were caring about what the ahrdest lamers said, what binary and devy said. but now... we are ignoring ex-members like they were devil itself. just like ats did it.

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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Mon 07 Jun 2010, 7:32 am

Pip wrote:
A certain person from that group proposes something. Then the members of the clan have to vote if they want it or not.
Thing is, the members never to propose anything.

When we where uniting the clan again after the fall of ATS, all day long we would make shitty group conversations on msn. that little group i was talking about was there. They were the ones to say things, we just got to vote on it. Nothing more.

http://soljk2.forumotion.com/the-council-f23/council-reformation-topic-t1284.htm
http://soljk2.forumotion.com/server-admins-f20/idea-t1224.htm
http://soljk2.forumotion.com/the-council-f23/joining-applications-t543.htm
http://soljk2.forumotion.com/server-admins-f20/activity-requirement-t350.htm

Only a short selection of member's proposals........I think this counters your argument nicely Smile

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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Mon 07 Jun 2010, 11:49 am

Of course we can learn something from other players outside of our clan. There are many of us who attempt to do that. For example, I don't believe in right and wrong. When people like Aju and Pip make suggestions, I consider them, and I respond to them. That's not what Aju and Pip are doing in this thread, though. They are simply complaining and insulting the clan. If you want to make change, then be constructive and kind. If you just want to let off steam, then continue what you're doing and just insult us.

Surprising as you may find it, I respond better to calls for change when you don't act like a lemon. If you approach a topic saying "I think you're doing everything wrong, here's how I would do it," I will actually take the time to respond to you. If instead, you approach a topic and say, "You guys are turning into ATS, there is barely anything good about SoL, the people leading your clan are corrupt, you make rules to facilitate abuse," I am not going to respond to your points, because they weren't intended to be constructive, they were just intended to release your own frustration.

Why should I waste my constructive breath if I know you are just going to insult my INTENTIONS. Aju knows that I intend well (although he still tends to be destructive in conversations about things of which I am a part, perhaps it's a cultural thing?), but I don't think Pip really believes it. Pip, I wouldn't have spent the hundreds of hours that I have configuring this server, modifying this forum, and debating about our clan's government if I didn't care about the fairness and well-being of the people in the clan. If you were to read most of the things we've debated about, you will find time and time again that the current leaders are a group of people trying to reach the best decision, not to rule over people.

Hell, I can't wait to give up my administrative positions because frankly, I don't have time to being doing this, and a lot of the time there are people who are utterly unappreciative of the work that I put in. (There are also a lot of people who are, and I appreciate that in turn.) But I also want to keep the positions, because I feel that the clan has a need for some of my expertise, and I don't want to leave the people in the clan in the dark.

I don't mind if you disagree with us. All sincere opinions are valid. Just because you have an opinion that is sincere though, does not mean that someone else who also has an opinion that is sincere is going to agree with you. In fact, most of the time we will probably disagree. What frustrates me is that you make statements that imply that we are not sincere. If you stop making statements that imply that we are doing things for our own greed, and instead try to understand why we would make the decisions we make for the good of the whole clan, then perhaps we can get somewhere in discussing things. But until you make that step, there's no way that I am going to give you the time of day in a debate, it is a waste of my effort if you don't put forth the same effort.
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Mon 07 Jun 2010, 12:43 pm

though i understand nick, and think that if we'd follow basic rules of politeness, not only us, who are attacked, but also those who attack, that we could work things out alot easier, faster and better. in fact the politeness is less a question of politeness, but of respect.
and it is obvious how ppl lost respect to their old clan, and clanmates. (and looking into the mirror, i see how i just neglect respect, becaue i see my clanmates as a normal thing, as a stable, and i forget that i have to treat them with respect too. in fact, i just forget it, because i am used to them, because they are at my side all the time)
having this said, i can come back to the points, which are made here.

pipsquid is not completely wrong. well, if the members dont propose anything, it was decision and fault of the members. we have synergy forums for such things. they are to be filled by the members. there you miss pippy, its no mistake of us.
but there is another mistake, that IS our fault: there is a reason why the ppl feel they cant make propsals, that they arent involved here. its a fact. i cant tell the reasons directly. it could be the system. maybe the elections arent enough to guarantee, that members are held to contribute. maybe the council was built and armed ill as a institution, maybe it should have been made up different. maybe the council members create the impression, that influence of the members is not wished, after the council is elected.
and i can really understand the last point. looking through bigger discussions and topics in the synergy forum for the council, and last discussions in the council area, i found several spots, at which the council is excluding the members and keeping them out of the discussion.
(though no-one agrees with me: but the latest elitary behaviour of the council members [including me... but i was always arrogant Razz] is an expression of how the members get downgraded. not by facts and actions, that can be pointed out. but it creates a feeling, an atmosphere that makes normal members feel lower than the council members or administratives.)

andn the problem that ajunta has, has its roots in the word abuse... and his own personal feelings.
he can feel abused, though he wasnt abused. idk if that happened to him on the server... therefore i am too inactive. but ik it happened alot in the past. and besides real abuse on outcasts ats, there happened alot of things as well, that werent abuse, but called that.
in fact aju is still kind of right: we have rules, that allow and demand things, that would be called abuse by other ppl.
a namechange, to be able to divide different padawan players, can be called abuse. but it has its reasons and purpose. and the players got warned. if they call it abuse... so be it. who cares. wimps...
but if you finally find out, that abuse only is when you use something against its purpose, or the extend it should be used, then you will see, that abuse isnt "allowed" in this clan. its a contradiction in itself.

but there is still one thing i can see, where i can follow aju.
we have rules, like the warnings, that are there to make it easy for admins to feel free to use their admin powers, without bad conscience. they warned, so they can do anything...
i mean: sometimes an admin could solve a problem, which would take soem work of course, but rather warns 3 times, to be able to use admin. i know that, i already did that. and then you can argue again if this was an abuse. in fact i abused the warning rule. but that isnt what the person who got abused, felt abused at. he felt the admin command i used on him, and calls that abuse. and as far as i saw, the abuse of the admin command is denyied. because it really wasnt abuse of the admin command.
but in the end it stayed a real abuse.

i dont want to point out anybody else than me. but if occasionally an admin is reading this... maye a future admin, pls dont do this, like i did.

but as i get ignored by 99% of everyone, as soon as i write more than 50 words, there will be no admin reading this ^^

@ aju
dont be like that. you know that we dont want to abuse. a tip would be good, how we can help handling a problem, without letting our basic rules be broken by someone constantly. because there is one thing i can tell you: we rather be called abusers, we rather DO abuse, than let our basic rules and convictions be hurt.

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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Mon 07 Jun 2010, 6:14 pm

Totally agree, Xaso.
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Mon 07 Jun 2010, 6:27 pm

You see, on others servers, when players logg in, nobody feels anger, nobody feels rage. People are here either to fight or have fun. I've never seen people insulting each other there. Always polite people, which arn't to waste their time insulting.
In SoL server, i see all the day insults flewing through the chatbox. Yesterday, me and eternal were 2v3 ing wehr bax and phantom.
It starting on 1v3 first, so we weren't really happy but didn't say nothing. But then wehr and phantom start saying ez, you sux, learn game, and etc i don't know what other shit. Thus, eternal answered by a GF at each kill.
That's an example of kildish attitude, which is lead by the server atmosphere.

I have to be honest, there are only 2 reasons for you to use admin on the server :
laggers : ban
lamers : warnings, kick or dunno what.

If lamers lame, it's because of the server itself, not the player itself. On euro servers, we don't see people laming freely. They chatkill if it is a war and all players have clan tags, then it is competition : the clan which has the most kills, so ofc they chatkill. But they don't look for anger, or else. People lamed just continue fighting without whining or cr ying.

And that is because there arn't the same people on euro servers and SoL server.
You'll never find people like phantom or wehr in euro servers, neither laaaaf. Those people have hugh mouths, but that's all. So they come to SoL server ( sorry but where are the worst players of jk2 ), to show their skills and being able to say ez you sux learn the game and etc.

I see a solution for that, which is still the same :
Teach to your poor guys how to use their saber and force, so that people like them can't invade the server.
There are always new annoyers, which wouldn't annoy an euro server because they would be just trashed hardly without any word : that is what makes them crazy : they insult in void and get trashed.
You are playing a game here, there isn't a court ready to judge people, but there is the game and its skills which are able to fix all issues.

You'll say that this clan isn't about skills, but it's what makes the failure of that clan : you forget what is jk2 and want to create another jk2.
If you would stick up to jk2, then you'd fix your problems.

Are these words polit enough ?
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Mon 07 Jun 2010, 6:37 pm

They are polite enough, but this is your opinion, this is not reality. JK2 has never been primarily about skill to the majority of its players. These days, Euro servers are concerned mostly with skill, which is why you have this biased view that JK2 is supposed to be about skill. In fact, it is a game that provides many unique features that predispose it to be a place of socializing. Our server exists to provide this atmosphere, but people who think that this atmosphere is out of place in JK2 join the server and break the rules that sustain this social atmosphere. When that happens, we use admin to maintain the atmosphere. It is not that this atmosphere should not exist, as you believe, it is that you don't want to play in a server where it exists, which has an easy solution: don't play in our server, where we want this atmosphere. The same goes to the people who insult, etc., they should not be playing here, because insults are against the rules as well. In fact, the vast majority of our admins only use admin in the situations you have named. In the past 3 months or so, I have only used admin against players about 3 times (purposefully), all laggers.

As I've said so many times, your opinion is not a law. We want to provide a unique experience which has the downside of requiring the suppression of freedoms, freedoms that take away from the freedom of others. As a result, people like you feel resentment for our server. That is ok, our server is not for you. You need a server where there are no rules against fighting. But for people who want shelter from the constant ownage of typical FPS games, we are here. It is not a downfall that our clan has poor players, that is the point of our clan: to focus on things other than fighting.

Rarely can you have it both ways: that you have skilled players who also do not trash newbs. If we could have skilled players who can defeat all lamers, that would be nice. But those players typically become lamers themselves, so it is difficult to achieve. You yourself have left our clan because its rules are too restrictive for how you want to play. Although we would benefit from your skill in defending players, you often end up becoming one of the people against whom is needed defending.

It's not a bad thing, it's just not what we want in our server. Just as being bad at the game is not a bad thing, for being good at the game is in most cases mutually exclusive with being kind and going easy on worse players.

You cannot say that we create laming simply because we define the word. Love exists whether or not it is called "love," just as laming exists whether or not we create rules about it. If we made the changes you suggest, we would be like a Euro server, which does not have the positive sides that our server has, which you conveniently claim do not exist. They do exist, otherwise we would have no clashes of personality with people who don't agree with our rules; they would have already been obeying those rules without the rules in place, so there would be no problem. Instead, what you claim is not true, and they do take issue to the rules and break them.

The main problem comes down to this: people break the rules, and sometimes admins punish them for breaking the rules, even if they weren't upsetting anyone. Admins should only be using admin to protect people who are being harassed, but this is difficult to achieve and we continually work on it. In servers where pro players exist, those pro players can harass the harassers, but pros themselves tend to harass people who don't deserve harassing, and so who is above the pros to save the amateurs? Admins.

Being good at the game is not the same as being wise and just. Even though you claim to have no rules, you instead believe that whoever is best at the game should be allowed to rule the game. If that were so, the developers would not have allowed for mods to be used in the game. Instead of admins, you have pros. It is no different, except that the pro rulers rule based on skill, and the admin rulers rule based on ownership of the server, or - in the case of SoL - election. Do not claim that skill rulers are better than elected rulers, yet still support democracy in your RL government over military dictatorships. It is the same principle; the fact that it is a game means nothing other than the weight of importance it should take in your mind. The possibility to do this exists in the game, that is reason enough to validate it.

Ajunta Pall wrote:
You'll say that this clan isn't about skills, but it's what makes the failure of that clan : you forget what is jk2 and want to create another jk2.
What is JK2? It is whatever the player believes it is. JK2 can be many things, including a place to socialize and be protected from unwanted fights. This existed immediately when the game came out (the server can ban, players can VOTE), and within weeks it was a major percentage of servers. Don't try to tell me that we are "creating another JK2," I have been here since the beginning, and servers like ours are not unique nor are they new. This has always existed in JK2, it is simply one of many forms that the game can take. All forms are valid, it is simply up to the administrators of the server which form the server will take.

Don't try to change this about our clan; the point of the clan is to not be the things that you say we should change to. Accept who we are, and help us to stay true to these principles while still managing to achieve peace with the people who love to fight.
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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Mon 07 Jun 2010, 9:51 pm

yes i totally agree nick.


but before you, aju, write an answer, i want you to consider this: there is yet a difference between what sol is meant to be, and what it is right now.which ahs several reasons. some are stuck to ppl. some are stuck to the system itself.
this clan works slow, but it always gets refreshed by elections. and the next administratives, chosen by the members, will handle those problems.
this means: as long as the elections themselves, wont be affected by corruption or other bad influences, this clan will make progress for what is the best for sol, its convictions and its server.
so, in time this clan will be what its meant to be. the clash between what we say and what we do, will get smaller and smaller, and the things will fit better. those things, that you can criticize - with right - right now, will be erased in time. and you wil have such a good working and inside itslef fitting system, just like your system of total, skill based game and social hierarchy.

(and you can decide: the system in which you get rated, by what you can and where you always have to prove that, or in the system in which you get considered by who you are and thats all, and i guess you can imagine whats everything connected to this)

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PostSubject: Re: change needed :)   Today at 8:17 am

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