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 /Kill in CTF

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Should killing yourself be allowed?
/Kill (yeah ^^)
50%
 50% [ 10 ]
/Nil (nooo <.<)
50%
 50% [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 20
 

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Phoenix
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PostSubject: /Kill in CTF   Mon 26 Jul 2010, 10:33 am

First topic message reminder :

I was having a discussion with nick and mereel during CTF, i had issues with them killing themselves in battle in order to respawn at base faster. I said it was underhanded, nick and mereel believe it is legit. What are all of your opinions?
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Hektor



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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Tue 27 Jul 2010, 8:08 am

/kill is good cuz if someone pulls you into hole, you kill yourself and he wont get any score into killtracker hahahahahaah
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Grimlore



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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Wed 28 Jul 2010, 1:07 am

i agree with that Very Happy lol!
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sebbat
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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Wed 28 Jul 2010, 3:47 am

hektor wrote:
/kill is good cuz if someone pulls you into hole, you kill yourself and he wont get any score into killtracker hahahahahaah

That is the suxy thing of /kill :/
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mereel
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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Wed 28 Jul 2010, 4:07 am

Well it seems that we are at a split decision it seems. Half of the group thinks it is underhanded and cheap, while the other half thinks it is perfectly fine. (Hektor accidentally voted No, so the votes are 9 - 9 so don't give me shit about I can't count)

Don't know why we had this poll. Seem like a poll of opinion, cause I don't think it is getting removed at all. It is a common part of 200 regen CTF, and to remove it ruins that game type. Besides we still can play 0 regen CTF, so not sure why all of you are complaining. =_='
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Hektor



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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Wed 28 Jul 2010, 5:28 am

Then HC makes both types ... and people will vote on the server which one they want ... but i love default CTF, with guns and slow regen
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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Wed 28 Jul 2010, 5:41 am

I hate guns and saber mixing, which is why i hate 'real ctf'. I can live with slow regen, but guns or sabers for me, never both, i hate both lol.
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Wed 28 Jul 2010, 6:11 am

how they all just look over without recognoizing.

so you all want to tell me you put on 200 regen only to do selfkill then?
this is ... idk either it is just stupid or it is hypocrit.

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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Wed 28 Jul 2010, 7:15 am

No, it means that selfkill is enabled only with 200 regen... =_='
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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Thu 29 Jul 2010, 4:37 am

it still means: you set down the regen, and then kill yourself for get force? why set down the regen?

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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Thu 29 Jul 2010, 7:29 am

cuz it is more cool .. + guns ftw !
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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Thu 29 Jul 2010, 10:09 am

Xasomur wrote:
it still means: you set down the regen, and then kill yourself for get force? why set down the regen?
It's an easy explanation that is only obvious once you've played it for awhile. People who vote thinking this is a reasonable question aren't really fairly voting because they haven't given it a real try.

With 0 regen, you never have to kill yourself (unless you're going to die) because within 5 seconds your Force is back. With 200 regen, if you waste your Force you are much less powerful unless you wait a long time, use Absorb appropriately, or die. Let me give an easy scenario to show you how 0 regen is different from 200 regen + kill:

0 regen: You chase a flag carrier and you spam pull on him but he uses Absorb, and after 20 pulls you are out of Force. You continue to chase him with strafe jumping and after 5 seconds you have enough Force to continue your pulling him.

200 regen + kill: You chase a flag carrier and you spam pull on him but he uses Absorb, and after 8 pulls you are out of Force. You have a choice: you either try to continue to chase him with Strafe jumping for 20-30 seconds until you have enough Force to start pulling him again, but you will probably lose him because he has full Force from Absorb and can use Speed to get away. Your other option is to kill yourself recognizing that you have failed with pull spam tactic, and try again.

Basically, with 200 regen, if you use a fail newb tactic, you are screwed. You must think about your low Force pool and use the fact that it is applied to your enemy as well to your advantage. With 0 regen, you can use as much newb tactics as you want and within 5 seconds even if it failed you can try something new or continue newb style.

0 regen is not the same thing as 200 regen + kill because with 0 regen you can stay where you are, with 200 regen you must die and try again. If you are using a 0 regen mentality in a 200 regen game, it will seem "harder." But if you acknowledge that the gameplay must be fundamentally different, you begin to view it as, indeed, simply "different" and you start to change your play style. But as you do, you quickly realize that you mess up a lot, and when you have no Force you are a sitting duck for people who happen to have a lot of Force. Rather than fight a losing battle, you kill yourself and try again. Killing yourself is always a large negative because it means you go back to your own base, it's used whenever you fail a run or succeed at a run.

Some of us want to play 200 regen because it fundamentally changes the way CTF is played, and we think it is for the better. Having less Force requires more strategy from each player and more teamwork as a whole, because one person cannot be as powerful and independent as he or she is when he or she can run around spamming Heal in 0 regen. But when we play 200 regen, /kill is necessary for it to be enjoyable, because otherwise we're sitting around doing nothing waiting for Force to regen.
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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Thu 29 Jul 2010, 10:13 pm

ye none pull spam with low regen
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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Fri 30 Jul 2010, 5:26 am

lol, so you tell me ppl should get used to low force regen, but still you try to avoid that by self killing? this remains.

furthermore: if you really wanna tell me that it shall only be used to regain force, then there is no need then to kill yourself when you were kicked down from a bridge or so. especially not if you were the flag carrier. because you are dead anyway soon and you will have your full force then.
you only do that to win 3 seconds of time to be faster and to not give points to your opponent.

it has nothing to do with force then.
only for the killer: it is way harder to kill someone, and if you finally did it, that idiot kills himself.

and if you saw my arguments its not the fact that you want to be faster or anyhow, its because you abuse the argument of force for stealing opponents points, though in the situations i am pointing out, you dont kill yourself for any of the reasons you mentioned.

if you kill yourself because you are in a pulk of 10 ppl all trying to kill you, then i say ok. if you ran a attack to the flag carrier, wasted your foece and the carrier ran away, its still cool. then no-one can really shed tears that you died. because as long as you werent fighting, and especially not if you were the flag carrier, then i cant have any problem. because i wasnt going to kill you. in a pulk of 10 ppl i only got 10% chance to get the kill. even if you were the flag carrier in that situaiton, because we still have the benefit that the flag gives us.

but in a 1 on 1 in the middle of the fight, i would really rage, and thats what i did. even worse if that was the flag carrier. and the top of the mountain is the falling down selfkill. you get the flag carrier, you got him though you need to fight with that suxy regen. and then he kills himslef when he falls and you have NOTHING...

and that has nothing to do with your "necessarity" to regain fastly the force.

furthermore, but we dont need to argue about that, i think if you tell me to get used to 200 regen, then you should get used as well to wait longer to regain your force. its what 200 regen is about duh. dont put it then. well. but i guess that will be amatter of opinion.

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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Fri 30 Jul 2010, 7:00 am

Xasomur, 200 regen is about /kill. That's why it's DEFAULT. It's SUPPOSED to be that way. You can't tell me that 200 regen is about waiting for Force when kill is always enabled in basejk and is an option.

I said /kill is <em>primarily</em> about getting Force back, because that is its most common use. It's also used to save time when you know you're going to die. Both instances are cases where the user is trying to save time, because being fast is what makes you good in CTF.

If you knock someone off an edge who doesn't have the flag, that's 1 point that you didn't get. Out of hundreds of points that you should be getting if you're participating hardcore, big deal. The ONLY time you lose a decent sum of points is when you knock a flag carrier to his death and he /kills early. I'm willing to live with that loss of points to avoid breaking 200 regen.

You're not getting the point about how 200 regen is different from 0 regen. Either that, or you're still clinging to the argument even though you know it's flawed, I'm not sure. I gave you a scenario and you seem to have ignored it. Fighting in 200 regen is not the same as fighting in 0 regen. If it were, you wouldn't be so pissy about 200 regen in the first place. The difference in fighting style, tactics, and strategy is what many of us like about 200 regen.

Ultimately what's important is who wins. Points are irrelevant to people who know what they're doing; it is understood who contributed in a meaningful way to the team's win (or loss), regardless of what the points say. Flag cappers are always going to have more points than everyone else, even if people aren't using /kill. That doesn't mean defense is less important than capping.

I feel like you're clinging to petty things because your real reason for maintaining this argument is that you just don't enjoy 200 regen. Spare the long, drawn out argument about things like "points" and subjective underhandedness and just chalk it up to a difference in opinion about 200 regen's being fun, if that's what your problem is. You may not like a bunch of things about 200 regen, but what is the <em>reason</em> that you don't like them? If it's just that you're bad at them or resist learning them, just be upfront and concede that 200 regen with /kill is legit, you just don't have fun with it.

If you really think you still have an argument, by all means keep arguing. I'd appreciate if you could keep it short and concise so that we get to the core issue though.
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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Fri 30 Jul 2010, 8:30 am

what i really dont understand is that 200 regen and /kill shall belong together. whoever said that? where can i read that, except from those who use it. its like those ppl who lame, say that the game is meant to be played like that. and i even saw scripters, that say sol, and their way to play the game makes jk2 die.
there is no argument behind saying it belongs together.

only because it is POSSIBLE doesnt mean that its good, or should be legit. whoever banned /kill from 0 regen may explain me the reasons why he did it there, because there it makes no difference, only for those who look on points.
and i would like to point out that regen... regeneration... itself IS the time you have to wait until yout force is restored. so, by the meaning of that feature its about waiting. you still have the same amount of force. setting force down to 200 just makes you wait longer to be there again. and you put 200 regen only to NOT wait for it to come back, but kill yourself.

and i did read your example. but it has nothing to do with what i talk about. how the ppl play the game is not of my prior interest. if they would start to block doors by teaming up to 4 ppl and close it, it is a cheap tactic, but i wont ban jump from their forces only to avoid that they jump on each other so that they can block a door.
nor did we ban rage from tffa, though if one starts to rage, after 2 minutes everyone spams rage dfa, because otherwise you die too often and get no kills, because it is a legit tactic, likepull spam is too. and you shouldnt whine about legit tacticts... isnt it what mereel tried to tell me when i complained aboutrage dfa?
nor did we ban lightning, which forces ppl to go ls, when one team decides to let 2 ppl spam lightning, so that they can absorb.
i tell you: you can see in tffa always those teams win that got more lightning spammers or rage spammers (and healers does help too, but that isnt the point)

i've been always taught, that i have to adjust myself to the tactics of other ppl and should not try to ban a special force. you could also, and thats what most ppl to, abs and speed. if they are enough ppl, they can get u with pullspam. but i would like to point out, that even with 200 regen: if you were ds, you would come far anyway, it doesn’t need much pull(spam) to get a ds off; and even you would use those few pulls to get the ds off. And in such cases you don’t need much force at all. You only pull spam BECAUSE ppl abs and speed. In a 200 regen ctf, it is even worse, because you don’t get those ppl.
But what I wanted to say: you cant get along with pullspam: so adjust yourself to the tactic, just like everybody else is. OR you play another game type. And I understood that 200 regen is another game type. Something which I don’t like tho, but that’s ok, I don’t have to play it.
Because I think that, I didn’t answer on the example, because I thought the example was only there to show me that it IS a different game type, but obviously you try to tell me that you change the settings because you dislike pull spam.

But then I like to say further things.
The first is already been said, but not in this relation: if you change the game type, which you did by putting 200 regen, and tell me to get used to that change, than I demand the same from you.
And setting the regen to 200 means waiting longer for the force to restore. It’s the meaning of the regen itself. That’s why I tell you that its hypocrite to put 200 regen, kill yourself because you don’t want to wait for the force to restore, but tell me to get used to the game type.
Because when you do that, you only do it because you dislike pullspam. And if you argue with me now, I think I am in the right to say, you are at least a big whiner, just like I am: you don’t like a game type, and changed it to what you like more. I disliked the game type, but I wasn’t able to change it.

So. 0 regen gives you the possibility to pullspam, because force restores in between the pulls. So pullspam is is given to you by 0 regen. This is a matter of game type. Love it or hate it. 200 regen takes it away from you. Love it or hate it. But it should be love it or hate it, and not: love it or hate it or kill yourself. Because then I would like to change back to 0 regen, if someone kills himself to gain force, because he doesn’t want to wait.
The sense of 200 regen is to wait longer for force to come. A consequence of that, is force spam to be avoided. But its not what 200 regen means. It means waiting longer for force to restore. And that’s why I am convinced that selfkill makes no sense in 200 regen.
Selfkill in 200 force regen only proves, that you play high regen because you don’t like ppl to spam forces. And that you want an advantage for urself because they cant tick you off with that cheap tactic. And that you don’t care for the regen itself, and the different game type. You wanted actually to play the same, only that ppl don’t spam forces.
And I would like to say that this is even cheaper than cheap pull spam. And pull spam is not even the key of 0 regen game type. As you saw justn was still abs, speed and strafing. And that’s what makes teams win in ctf. And as you say its about the win in ctf (but which wasn’t for me: as you see I only care for my personal performance, that’s why I look on points). If they pullspam or not, doesn’t matter to him.
You can easily defend pull spam when you are ls. You can never defend forces when you are ds, no matter if you play 200 or 0 regen. So don’t complain about the pullspam. The real shit is the abs+speed+strafe. So ban that, if you want to have something banned, that is really the key of the game type of 0 regen. (like banning ls from ctf. Then I could understand banning 0 regen, because ds with 0 regen would destroy every gameplay.)
But all this doesn’t change the fact, that selfkill destroys the game. Especially the 200 regen game, like I explained.

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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Fri 30 Jul 2010, 9:20 am

omg Xaso, seriously, I don't know how many more ways I can explain this.

200 regen is not on just to combat pull spam. It fundamentally changes the way Force powers and sabers are used, and fundamentally changes he dynamics of capturing, defending, and returning flags. 200 REGEN + KILL IS NOT THE SAME THING AS 0 REGEN. Fights in 200 regen are more footwork, more saber, less Force. Whenever you start to cut out Force, which is very fast, you start to add in the necessity of good strategy to win, because you cannot rely on using the same thing over and over. I don't mind doing this in FFA gametype because the point is just to kill. But in CTF, there is a different primary objective: capturing flags. If 200 regen + kill were the same thing as 0 regen, I could chase a flag carrier, use up my Force, press a button and have all my Force back and keep attacking the flag carrier. But in reality, 200 regen demands that you make a choice between continuing your pursuit under Force deprivation, or killing yourself to make another run with the advantage of increased Force but the disadvantage of wasted time returning to the enemy flag carrier. It's the Force deprivation fights that I like about 200 regen. Force deprivation does not just mean lack of pull spam. It means lack of heal spam, lack of constant Absorb, lack of constant Speed, lack of PK or ST domination. Lower regen simply means that fights are more saber and footwork-oriented and less Force-oriented. You claim that blocking doorways is a cheap tactic, and that is wrong no matter how you look at it. Any good melee warrior in a game or IRL knows the importance of positioning. In real life, people tend to guard things by defending choke points. The same thing can happen in JK2, and if <strong>something intuitive like that</strong> works, it's a good strategy and should be used.

I don't want 200 regen to get away from something specific, I want it because it completely changes the way fights play out - ALL elements of them. They are different: they are more reserved but no less frantic. If /kill negated the reasons for 200 regen, why do I so defend 200 regen + kill? It's because there is a good balance for CTF and a large change to contention dynamics from 0 regen.

I use pullspam when we do 0 regen because it's a good tactic in 0 regen. I don't deny that it is legit. But we play pullspam wars all the time in FFA, and in CTF it just doesn't translate as well because everyone is a glass cannon rather than a small part of a whole. Team games in general prompt for the possibility of increased teamwork and less twitch, and I think that TFFA would probably be better with 200 regen as well. But you don't want /kill in TFFA because you win by frag count and the only points are single kills, and there is no greater objective to hold in greater concern than your own and your team's score. In CTF the winner is dictated by number of flag captures, not player scores, and so /kill's point-affecting aspect does not influence the outcome of the game; its gameplay application does.

Let me stress again that those of us who enjoy 200 regen enjoy it because it changes the fights. We don't chase after a flag carrier, run out of Force, and instantly kill ourselves. We chase after a flag carrier, try to kill him or her, and if it looks like we might succeed even under Force deprivation we continue the chase, but if it looks like a lost cause we kill ourselves to regain Force and take another run from the advantage of having an increased Force pool, although we are at the disadvantage of having to return to the enemy flag carrier. Defenders have the same ability to help out their flag carrier by regaining Force, but those seconds they lose killing themselves and returning to their flag carrier may have been vital to keeping the carrier alive; it's a gamble and in many cases has to be used wisely.

It's just all about the dynamics, it has nothing to do with banning something specific, unless you consider altering most parts of the gameplay banning the alternative of all of those parts.
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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Fri 30 Jul 2010, 10:33 pm

lol you are saying still the same but xaso just doesnt understand ...
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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Sat 31 Jul 2010, 12:10 am

I think what nick is saying (because there more info here than i care to read lol) is that 200 regen has more demand for /kill because its simply more beneficial to kill yourself because time is further against you. The need for force conservation, is ever greater so it kind of makes sense that once that supply is expended, you might as well cut your losses and return to base with a full force supply. I dont really agree with tactic, and i dont do it myself, but i can see the reason for it.

Yesterday in Ctf i was specin PEG, and its amazing how efficient he wants to be. His play shows just how more important time is, in 200 regen ctf. Everytime he spawned if he wasnt in a good position, he would kill himself, if he did anything that wasted vital seconds, he would kill himself, if he expended even the slightest force that he felt he didnt need to, he would kill himself. If he missed the enemy with the flag, and ended up without force, he wouldnt wait, turn and chase, he would kill himself then, start again.

The problem with 200 regen without /kill is that 75% of the time, the server would be full of participants waiting around for their force to recharge. With full regen this just isnt necessary, because your force pool recharges really quickly, it isnt so much of a loss when u run out of force because u only have to wait 3 seconds before you have enough force to attack again. /kill doesnt have ample benefit here. It would only be usefull if you were attacking, and needed to go back to the enemy's base. And with maximum regen u could use speed+abs, and not worry about depleated force once you get there, because it recharges fast.

So whether i agree with its use or not, I can at least see the dividends for using /kill, certainly in 200 regen anyways.
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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Sat 31 Jul 2010, 2:18 am

i do understand you nick, but the more you try to explain me, the more false it seems to me. because when someone puts 200 regen, then i think that the new setting is about waiting longer before the force comes back. thats what 200 regen is about. by killing yourself you just avoid that. and that makes no sense to me

and i understood that 200 regen changes completely the way you fight. but then i think that its part of 200 regen as well, that you are forced to wait when you run out of force. its part of the game type then.

i think it comes down to how you look on /kill. you say its a normal move like a force or a saberstrike is. but i dont think so. just because it is banned from 0 regen ctf. if it was such a normal command, then it would be part of the game there too. but its a command that interefers with the gameplay inapproiately and unnormal. because it is not like a force usage or so. /kill is not even part of the game. if it was there would be a default bind for it. but it isnt. well, over time i screwed up my bindlist so hard, but if i remember right, taunt has no default bind as well. and thats how /kill appears to me. or even like a script. you are within the possibilities of the game. but with a certain usage of that command and that possibility, you are abusing it. kill is there for changing forces and, similar to taunt, fooling around.

thats why it seems especially stupid to me, when you use /kill in 200 regen ctf. Ist just the least situation to use /kill for me. Thats why i say it comes shortly after a ks for me. Maybe in this topic you should have tried to more talk with me about /kill than about 200 regen. Because thats what it is about. And the more you wrote the more stupid 200 regen seems to me.

Because actually the game play is wrong, just like phoenix says: if you wouldnt abuse /kill you would stand around all the time waiting for your force. The game play, which so much relys on speed (and i dont mean the force now) doesnt work with such a slow force regen. Thats why the 0 regen seems so normal and natural to ctf.
I think that 200 regen doesnt work at all then, as long as you dont think /kill abuse is normal and a legit way. Ist a contradiction to itself. Ist a complete different gameplay, yes. But it only works if you bend the gameplay so much, that you cant see jk2 in it: you more need to know about commands and strafes and speed and so on, than about how to fight and play the game. Which is different in 0 regen. With a basic normal skill, you can have fun playing that and you can be helpful to your team. Which you cant be in 200 regen. Only if you are used to it, and used to exploit commands. Or you turn on weapons in 200 regen, that would give you the possibilty to use a gun, when you ran out of force. It makes the gameplay more complex, and not so fixed on certain moves like /kill and the abs/speed/strafe combo.

But as long as you say /kill is a splendid and honorable thing, then i can completely understand you saying its necessary for 200 regen without weapons. Ist simply the cruth for a screwed game type. But then i ask myself, why we dont all begin to ks, because the argumentation is the same: in ff and ffa the gameplay relates so much to kicking. To kick good is a fundamental skill to win. And winning is what the game is about, like you say. And as /kill and ks are no default binds…

You can say what you want. But i will always feel like a cheater when i use /kill in that way. And i will always think of it as cheating, when someone uses it. And thats a matter of feeling. I am sure you could point out good arguments that its a clean way. But i am also sure: if you wante to, you could point out good arguments that it isnt. So there is no need to try to convince me. It will only make me more angry, will only make me more aware of the things i dislike at that way of playing. So just lets stop that here.
And a 10/10 vote shows that i am not the only one who feels that.

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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Sat 31 Jul 2010, 4:45 am

Xaso, its impossible to play with 200 regen without /kill, its just really difficult
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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Sat 31 Jul 2010, 5:24 am

xaso, as nick said, with 200 regen force, if you fail at running after someone, then you fail, you can't wait your force to come back because it will be too late. So even if you kill yourself, you can't manage to get back to the other.

Don't forget taht kill brings you back to your base, so if you're trying to kill the flag carrier in the middle of the map, and you fail then kill yourself, then he wins. So it's quit fair
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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Sat 31 Jul 2010, 9:12 am

And too slow ... if you lose all your force ... you have to wait years to get it back ... look .... 1 opponent's flag = 100 points ... and if you kill yourself .. it takes only 1 point down lol ... btw why do you care so much ? if you kill yourself ... it just takes down 1 point to you ... none else ...
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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Sat 31 Jul 2010, 9:53 am

Alright, Xaso, we'll leave it at that. /kill is not banned in 0 regen by the way. I banned it before I played CTF a few times because I thought it was cheap, seeing good players like PEG and justn do it. But upon playing CTF, I gained the opinion that it was just part of the game. Part of gaining that opinion was letting go of the bitter feeling that a new CTF player gets when he is going to kill someone but they kill themselves instead. Once you play for awhile and you are an integral part of a team, you realize that forcing your enemy to kill themselves is a point in and of itself. Might not show on the scoreboard, but it's there.

I would ban kill in 0 regen for you, except that I'm a firm believer that simply playing in a server without settings makes you think the settings are bad. (ie - people playing without /kill will think it is bad, people playing with /kill will think it is good.) If there is no moral argument one way or the other for it, I would rather have the newer CTF players aligning their views with the pro CTF players rather than the other way around, just makes sense. (For damage control: don't try to turn this into a laming analogy, laming is allowed in our fighting-based gametypes like CTF, TFFA, JM, and Holocron. Once honor goes out the window in a gametype, the only thing to worry about is cheating, which means using exploits or cheats, and /kill is neither an exploit nor a cheat.)

Just for a heads up, /kill IS banned in TFFA, Jedi Master, and Holocron. It makes sense in those games. In TFFA, teams win based on kill count. In Jedi Master and Holocron, no one can change their Force powers, and a player wins based on kill count.
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PostSubject: Re: /Kill in CTF   Today at 4:18 am

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/Kill in CTF
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