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 thereferee's so called scripts

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TheReferee///



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PostSubject: thereferee's so called scripts    Sun 19 Sep 2010, 2:35 am

First topic message reminder :

alright sol ppl first off im not trying to get unbanned or what ever just want some knowledge
alright so scripts
for the past week i have been useing my scroll wheel to kick ppl
that means i bind kick to mwup and mwdown
not 2x kick
my scroll wheel acts as a space bar
so then would that be called a ks
beacuse all i did is move my space bar to scroll wheel
a ks by your rules is any kick that is above 20/21 mine does 22 because i can scroll faster then anyone can press space bar
but what u guys think of when u think ks is one button that lets u kick im not doing that i have to scroll 2x just like all u guys with the space bar


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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Mon 20 Sep 2010, 8:22 pm

wehr, as you can see from our last few posts, your explanation of wait time is exactly what we agreed upon; not sure why you think your own explanation is funny. Lack of knowledge about scripts is not equivalent to a lack of knowledge about the game; scripting is a small part of the game. Your passive insult implies that having played the game a long time should result in a strong understanding of the mechanics behind scripting, and that failing to have that understanding is indicative of a particularly ignorant player. I disagree; I feel that scripting is a small and unnecessary part of the game, and I have gotten along quite well having not explored scripting in the past.

More amusing, however, is that everything you explained in your post I (and I believe Xaso as well) knew or deduced in under 24 hours; for my part, I spent about 30 minutes total testing. If it takes such little time to learn the contents of your post, I find it unfair for you to claim that our previously having not known about it is indicative of any strong "lack of knowledge of the game" on our part. If you simply meant that the thread indicates that we do not know every intricacy of scripting, then I take no offense. If this is the case, then I shall return the favor and propose that you show a lack of knowledge of what I like to do when I'm alone in the "office" of yavin, and as such you really show a lack of knowledge of the game.
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Ajunta Pall
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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Mon 20 Sep 2010, 8:51 pm

wehr has a good knowledge of the game : he has understood how to kill someone with drain spam and 50 damages kicks xD.
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wehr



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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Mon 20 Sep 2010, 9:19 pm

no, it wasn't meant as insult but rather knowledge of scripting. as i said before i don't view it as cheating. i view it as part of the game that the programmers intended. the dl link i provided is from one of the programmers. was more to give newer players who want to learn to script some reference.

@aju, my scripts are just better then yours bro. :p and don't forget my emote kills, lol.

ps- my explanation was primarily to show use of back to back commands within a script, not wait time.
pps- i edited last post to read "art of jk2 scripting" instead.


Last edited by wehr on Mon 20 Sep 2010, 9:39 pm; edited 4 times in total
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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Mon 20 Sep 2010, 9:24 pm

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying. (You don't want to know what I do alone in the office though, trust me; I won't provide a download link. Wink)
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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Mon 20 Sep 2010, 9:26 pm

hihi, nick the lawyer Smile
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Mon 20 Sep 2010, 11:15 pm

NickdeClaw wrote:
The summary is this: for any input button that you can indeed hold down for a duration, you can't reasonably hold it down for shorter than the "wait 2" period. This means that in all circumstances a script emulates a button being held down for shorter than is humanly possible, and so in no circumstance does it save and execute an otherwise failed jump.

i didnt understand the last part of the sentence.

i was talkin about this: during a lag situation i press run for lets say 1 sec. but because of the lag it executes it as if i pressed it longer (or not at all).
which led me to the conclusion that the server only accepts info according to the quality of your connection: so even if you pressed jump for 0.010 seconds it will be executed longer, as because of your connection the server cant accept such short commands. it will always execute your command until the server gets another one.
so the better your ping, the more the info (that gets to the server from you) will be executed like you performed them.

and what i said then, was if you use a ks, all this gets unimportant, because you give the info to the server as if you had no ping at all.
i mean, with a ping you cant perform such a small jump, even if you could press so fast physically, because of your connection quality. but with a ks you can perform such small jumps because you give that info to the server all at once and you dont have to perform the commands yourself, and they arent affected by your connection.

did you agree with this, or not?
or did you read something else than i meant to write? XD

(@ ref... why? why do you act like such a kid?)

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wehr



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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Tue 21 Sep 2010, 12:31 am

xaso, he is talking just about the fact that a script can put a wait 2 duration on a jump which is not possible even with mouse1 or mouse2 taps. the last sentence he is just saying that a wait 2 will not even give enough duration, wait, for there to be a jump. actually there is just a slight jump.

xaso, you are right in what you are saying and it is because ping is measure of speed to a server. the data being sent when key is pushed, or held, is broken up into many packets. a person farther from server will have slightly higher jump then person closer just because of time it takes packets to reach server. this is why it gets harder to do normal kick with higher ping. even though u do normal timing on your keyboard of 2 taps the gap between the receipt of the packets of info from your computer increases as distance from server increases. so at a certain point, with lack of ping and bandwidth, it becomes humanly impossible to kick. a script, because it's faster, can allow you to kick in a server where you wouldn't be able to normally.

fyi, in case you don't know, when you press spacebar you have 3 things happen:

+moveup when you press
wait time how long you hold
-moveup when you release

btw, spacebar is not anywhere near as fast as mouse1 or mouse2 for normal kick. spacebar is good for drain and heal. only time i think it's good for jump is when you're facing
pk, or pk scripter, spammer. then you want slightly higher jump, do red hits and let their force pull pull you into to them to do damage. it's also better to use mouse1, or mouse2, for jump because the quicker jumps use so little force. conservation of force is important even in high regen. you don't want to be wasting force on jumps when it could go to lighting, st or something else more valuable in offense/defense.

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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Tue 21 Sep 2010, 1:04 am

ok then we never disagreed, i just didnt understand the wording.

but i will still haave jump on spacebar Razz question of honor and not of skill or a better kick...

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Ajunta Pall
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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Tue 21 Sep 2010, 1:13 am

honor of what ? you have a key board and a mouse, and you are free to choose the key you want to play ^^. Me i use spacebar for pull, mouse2 for jump, mouse5 for saberstance, i don't feel guiltly for not using default keys ^^. What's the most important is that you use the keys which you like and manage to use the most, that's all. If you manage better with ctrl than space, while should you use space ?
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Tue 21 Sep 2010, 1:27 am

honor, that i dont crave for a better kick and change all my settings until the borders of legitimity in order to achieve any advantage.
it feels like im downgrading myself when i try anything to kick better. you dont feel like that. but you dont have my kind of honor and pride.

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wehr



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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Tue 21 Sep 2010, 4:08 am

Xaso, in english we say, "keep an opened mind". you are young. in all aspects of your life you should not be so negative to new ideas and ways of thinking. just think if all the great scientists had taken everything they were taught for granted. galileo was taught the heavens went around the earth and the earth was center of the universe. his very life was threatened for standing up what he knew was the truth. to me people like galileo, and many others, are true heroes. people that stand up for what they believe and promote the truth. rommel is a hero of mine too. i just wish he had taken out his pistol and blown hitler away point blank. hitler was a f' ing disgrace to germany, austria and all the christians living there. it is funny how one century there are people like Friedrich von Schiller and Beethoven. And then in the next comes hitler.

deine zauber binden wieder
was die mode streng geteilt
alle menschen werden bru"der
wo dein sanfter flu"gel weilt

my fav lines are this

laufet bru"der eure bahn
freudig wie ein held zum siegen

i just wish more people understood these words and lived by them.

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Last edited by wehr on Tue 21 Sep 2010, 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Tue 21 Sep 2010, 4:55 am

wehr wrote:
so at a certain point, with lack of ping and bandwidth, it becomes humanly impossible to kick. a script, because it's faster, can allow you to kick in a server where you wouldn't be able to normally.
This is true if the script gets sent to the server and the server interprets the command sequence, but are you sure that's how it works? It could also be that the script is interpreted by the client and the resulting packets are sent to the server. Indeed, you say:

wehr wrote:
fyi, in case you don't know, when you press spacebar you have 3 things happen:

+moveup when you press
wait time how long you hold
-moveup when you release

If those things are happening, and they are all controlled by the human interaction with the space bar, each press of a button can be translated into a script that perfectly describes the key press. Earlier I was suggesting that for a given press of a jump key, if you were to translate that into a script that perfectly emulates it on a localhost server, that both the raw button press or the script, when submitted to an internet server, would produce the same effect on the server.

I'm not sure which way it works, but the answer drastically changes the effects of scripting. Do you know for sure which way it works, wehr?
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wehr



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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Tue 21 Sep 2010, 5:35 am

sripts are interpreted by the client and put into packets. but even scripts get broken up into diff packets cuz of wait commands. so even if you script, ping has effect on scripts. it is just not as evident as say with a normal kick. a whole script would never go in the same packet unless it was short, like 1 command. i think xaso believed scripts went all at once, not so. the server side does not see a script coming. it just sees the raw commands. that is why scripting is not possible in duelers, cuz of the client side stuff that is installed. most stuff you do could be scripted but more complex stuff would be too time consuming to even try. i have scripts for all special moves. i made them long time ago but never use them. there used to be a lot of blue lunge scripters. if you notice on CA there are still quite a few kick scripters. dueling scripters used to be as plentiful as force scripters. if you look in your cfg at all your binds the clientside will take a single command and interpret it from the base commands in the cfg. i think in normal cfg there is just +moveup on a key for jump but they clientside knows how to interpret the keyheld and release from the +moveup command.

does that answer the question?

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ps- when i used to go on server with reallly bad ping sometimes my scripts wouldn't work.

e.g. say i had +moveup;wait 2;+moveup;-moveup;force_pull

i actually found out i could do the following a lot of times to compensate for ping:

+moveup;wait 1;+moveup;-moveup;force_pull

then kick would work again. you just have to test. diff things have worked on diff server and diff mods, with varying ping.

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Ajunta Pall
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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Tue 21 Sep 2010, 6:22 am

why force pull after kick, it's just stupid lol, you have to pull before the kick !
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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Tue 21 Sep 2010, 7:04 am

wehr, it might answer the question. What you've said implies what I was suggesting, which is not what Xaso was saying. Basically, this example sums it up:

Say you make a kick with normal key presses that has a 0.16s duration first jump.
You also make a script with "wait 40" because for you on your own localhost server it corresponds exactly to 0.16s duration.

Now you go to a server where you have, say, 400ms ping. You perform the kick with normal key presses holding the button for a duration of 0.16s, and then you also perform the kick with the script. Does it result in exactly the same effect, other variables being constant?

I would expect that if the client interprets a script the same way as key presses, that they would be the same, but I don't know.

@ Aju: It depends on the range. At close range, I jump first, and pull at the same time as my second jump press. At short-medium range, I pull at the same time as my first jump. At medium range, I pull slightly before my first jump. At long range, I pull a bit before my first jump.

I do this primarily because of learning from the effectiveness of scripters. Particularly at close range, it has the unique effect of sometimes sending my opponent flying underneath me, or more often sailing past me to the side, rather than actually being propelled in the direction of my kick. I suspect this a large reason some people believe I script.
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wehr



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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Tue 21 Sep 2010, 7:04 am

lol ajunta, try it. on scrollwheel how many times u think the commands i wrote are repeated? the pull will come b4 the kick and many failed kicks come b4 a kick hits. think bout it. the pull can go b4, or after, it won't make a diff on mwheelup or mwheeldown. this is an example of a ffa script, not ff. if it doesn't work it may be ping problem for you. not sure what your ping is on sol. you ask why? well when you're a scripter you try all kinds of shit cuz the best shit you ever find comes out of nowhere, like the 50 damage. you find it by trial and error sometimes. others it will come by accident and sometimes it is even contrived.

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wehr



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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Tue 21 Sep 2010, 7:19 am

@nick, in your examples i would expect the result to be same for both scripted jump and normal jump (whatever function your testing) with same timing (you say wait 40). what would slightly vary would be both funtions done locally or done remotely. the remote functions should vary slightly because of distance to server. like a slightly longer jump for the scripted, and normal, jump(both with wait 40). in my example of changing script timing to make script work with worse ping it displays how ping effects script, not just normal functions.

ps- with the kick you would have to break up the 40 though and put the kick towards the end of the script. you can't +moveup;wait 40;+moveup;-moveup. you could probably wait 36;+moveup;wait 2;-moveup; +moveup;wait 2;-moveup to get same timing. there are other ways to get timing same and different ways to kick
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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Tue 21 Sep 2010, 7:33 am

I know that ping affects both normal and script, but I'm curious whether it affects them differently. More precisely, I'm curious if there is a difference at all between a normal kick and a scripted kick if they are set to the same timing. If there is no difference, then there will be no difference between the two regardless of testing environment. I believe that is what you're saying: that there is no difference between normal and script, and that local vs. remote changes both of them in the same way (so that normal vs. script is equivalent both locally and remotely).

In my example, "wait 40" is equivalent to 0.16 seconds when testing locally (which is what I experienced when testing locally). Let's pretend that the normal kick's second jump also happens immediately after the duration of the first jump for simplicity.

In a remote setting, with say a 400ms ping, I know that even though the button is held for 0.16s, the duration of the first jump will not be 0.16s. Say the normal jump is now 0.28s between jumps, will the script (which is still using the "wait 40" command that corresponded to 0.16s locally) also have a 0.28s duration between jumps?
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wehr



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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Tue 21 Sep 2010, 7:43 am

yes nick, you are right. another thing to note is when you have bad ping what you see can actually be way behind what your opponent sees. e.g. have you ever gotten killed when you had bad ping and didn't even see it happen? it happens to outcast all the time and he accuses me of scripting in duel. has nothing to do with me scripting. he just does'nt see my rdfas coming til he's dead cuz his ping blows.
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Hektor



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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Tue 21 Sep 2010, 8:29 am

I see that each Referee's topics is the hottest lol
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TheReferee///



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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Tue 21 Sep 2010, 9:42 am

lol do ppl hate me but they love to talk to me its funny LOL Very Happy

and i guess that answers my question ty !!
not that it maters but what ev xP

ill be back on sol's server in 6 months XP

thanks to herny the decoy and seb the admin
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Kernow Pilgrim
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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Tue 21 Sep 2010, 10:06 am

You had it coming and you know it Neutral

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PostSubject: Re: thereferee's so called scripts    Tue 21 Sep 2010, 12:54 pm

ok nick catched my point : >
and i see there is no real evidence for anything regarding that special topic, which results in the conclusion that, if the kick dmg has to do with the kick speed (may it be the duration of your jump or the delay between the 2 jumps) we cant really find out how it is influenced...
thats a shame...

@ wehr
its funny that you pull out galilei as one of your heroes. because i appreciate him much as well... (and i dont really care for that he canceled what he said... but its a reason for me to put giordano bruno before galilei, bruno chose the dying by fire and not the living by lying)

but this is a comparison that will lead no-one of us to anything. because i'd say that in fact gelilei was rediscovering things ancient scientists already found out. and by a "mode" (how schiller calls it) of history the evidence was laid away for the misuse of a growing and success-promicing community that formed christian church... and galilei stood up for what he believed was right...
so if you compare to him, i can do it too.

but idk if schillers lines fit here... there is a reason why they are the anthem of the eu. but i would call scripts and the mentality of scripting the "mode" and when we all get down to the simply joy of the game, and get away from the skill craving, we can truly be friends someday Smile

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