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 The Neo nazis is back

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Boogieman
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PostSubject: The Neo nazis is back   Sun 14 Nov 2010, 6:30 am

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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Mon 15 Nov 2010, 8:01 am

Obama is an idiot when it come to economics and finance. When an economy is coming out of recession you don't totally revamp the healthcare system. It makes companies not want to hire new workers because they don't know how it's going to effect payroll taxes. You don't put blanket moratoriums on gulf drilling and put thousands of more people out of work. So many companies and people were hurt by this even though they had nothing to do with BP's disaster. His bad decision making and lack of intellect, when it comes to economics, have slowed our recovery. You also don't raise taxes coming out of a recession. You should wait a couple years til your out of the woods. He makes me want to puke. I have BBA in finance and minor in econ. Obama should have read more Keynes, Friedman, or even Galbraith(who is a liberal). You keep changing the rules of the game and it will not only slow recovery but can threaten it.

Nick, you are happy with Obama's decisions because you lack to tools to properly understand it's effects. His decisions have not been slow, or studied for that matter. They were rash and have hampered economic growth. Take an entry level macro econ class. The average american realizes we cannot afford the entitlements proposed in his healthcare program. If everyone thought as you do we are doomed.

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KiraOrLight
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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Mon 15 Nov 2010, 8:36 am

Wehr, the timing of healthcare reform was due to the fact that midterms were coming up. You can't risk something like that. By the way, the plan EASES economic pressures on the populace, not increases them.
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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Mon 15 Nov 2010, 8:45 am

Yea Kira, people not having jobs eases their plight. And more people losing jobs eases it more. Right Kira????? You have a lot to learn kid. Get a degree from the Ross School. Then come talk to me.

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KiraOrLight
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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Mon 15 Nov 2010, 10:35 am

How does it reduce jobs? Answer me that. My point was that if you dont have to pay out of your own pocket for a surgery because it can be fobbed off by the companies as a "pre-existing condition", then you have more money. Now, I admit that shutting ALL offshore drilling was a move made entirely to appease the ignorant angry masses. And wehr, you are simply playing a common game. "I'm more qualified than you so I won't discuss it in rational terms with you." You have even degenerated to insults. Yes, I am younger than you, but that does not mean that I have no brain. If you are so much smarter, argue your points with logic, not with unsupported claims.
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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Mon 15 Nov 2010, 11:15 am

wehr wrote:
I have BBA in finance and minor in econ. Obama should have read more Keynes, Friedman, or even Galbraith(who is a liberal). You keep changing the rules of the game and it will not only slow recovery but can threaten it.

Nick, you are happy with Obama's decisions because you lack to tools to properly understand it's effects. His decisions have not been slow, or studied for that matter. They were rash and have hampered economic growth. Take an entry level macro econ class. The average american realizes we cannot afford the entitlements proposed in his healthcare program. If everyone thought as you do we are doomed.
I've taken an econ class. Actually, I've been reading <em>The Economist</em>, which is written by economists who have more authority on the topic than you have. While they criticize Obama for certain aspects of some of his economic decisions, they support the majority of them.

They support the healthcare bill. Although there are problems with it, they believe it should have passed because it forms a framework for positive reform. They mention that no President except Obama in the years to come would have been capable of getting this passed, and because of this - even though the bill had become diluted by Congress and has some problems - it was important that it get passed now, allowing for progress towards the ideal reform in the future. They mainly criticize Obama for not showing <em>more</em> leadership and being <em>more</em> instrumental in the drafting of the bill, a criticism that is a response to the dilution that occurred to it in Congress.

They agreed with the stimulus package and intervening with the banks.

They think it is ridiculous that conservatives claim he is a socialist because he has supported privatization, resisted a moratorium on foreclosures, etc.

They fault him for not taking the opportunity to clearly inform businesses about how the new healthcare bill will affect them.

Basically, they <em>agree</em> with most of his policies, but they think he needs to work more cooperatively with businesses to limit the amount of uncertainty that the changes are creating, and that he should do more to explain and prove that he is not anti-business, a label the Republican Party has met little resistance in applying.

Now you can <em>disagree</em> with these things and believe that there is a <em>better</em> way to go about achieving the same results, but there are those with expert opinions who do in fact agree with them. I think this is proof enough that he is not "an idiot when it come to economics and finance." If <em>The Economist</em> is agreeing with him, he's not just being reckless and making poor decisions. He's making careful decisions, you just don't agree with them.


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KiraOrLight
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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Mon 15 Nov 2010, 11:19 am

The Economist places a heavy emphasis on how his decions, no matter which ones he makes, will be critizised. BTW werh, you MIGHT be able to outargue me, but NOONE can outargue Nick. He is one of the smartest and most rational people I know. Pages of efforts by Kernow and Xaso were not able to change my view, and one post by Nick did. Pay attention to him, he'll probably be your boss sooner or later. Very Happy>
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Mon 15 Nov 2010, 11:23 am

wehr wrote:
You need to read more about the Lend Lease Act of 1941. We sent a great deal of war material to Russia during WWII. Without our aid Russia may not have survived. We sent a great deal in aid to the UK as well. Our leaders in WWII, if you read into it, took their time in opening a 2nd front in europe mostly because they knew it would save american lives. This is also why we let the soviets take Berlin. Read Eisenhower's autobiography. Our air domination is what totally devastated Germany. We bombed the shit out of Germany. You should go back thru the war photos of German cities. They looked like the moon when our bombers got done with them. USA's air power left german manufacturing in ruins, not Russian. Germany is lucky the war ended when it did. The US would have nuked Germany if the war in Europe had lasted longer

that proves nothing but that they hated german nazis even more but russian soviets. and it does prove good that its smart to give the soviets the weapons so that the two greatest enemies can kill each other, while the usa waits another years before they end the war in europe. its a matter of perspective and of the light you put on the happenings. and the fact that you have an opinion that differs from another just proves that the media, that teaches you about those things, is part of another propaganda, than the propaganda my media tells about the happenings.
i dont say that the media we have in europe, or especially in germany, isnt part of a propaganda as well. you could say that my view on your media is biased by what my media tells about yours... but thankfully nick is supporting me there.

and the reason why nick disagrees with me about the nazism in the us, is because of the different meanings we attribute to those words. just like socialist is condemned in the world, but over all in the us. in germany being socialist is not too bad. but being connected to the gdr is bad. because all what ppl think of when someone says gdr is stasi. and many ppl are reminded by gdr when someone says socialism.
and its hard to define nazism. and in fact, if we talk about nazism now, we cant call it nazism, because its a denomination for a governemt in the past. current nazism differs from that. and its quite hard to define whats left then.
ive talked about this to different professors of the different ages, how they'd define it, and they all made it different. but something they all had in common: hate. nazism needs something to hate. the more and deeper you hate, the more nazi it is. if you hate jews, blacks, socialists, women, awesome, cripples, french or if you hate moslems, socialists, nazis, japanese, russian or something which you cant denominate, because its a artificial word for ppl that you are meant to hate... e.g. call them taliban... it doesnt matter. and the fact that you agree, that american politics exaggerates so much about the things, it is supporting many of these. those exaggerations are always meant to make ppl hate or love. nothing in between. no distinguished information. (and this was the best tool that hitler and goebbels had as well)
another part of nazism is an exaggerated pride and love towards the own race or country. maybe thats distorted by the media i know, and the americans i met...
but i see it now, i saw it in the discussion about 9/11 and i had discussion on the server, and in private discussions.... if you told a german, who is not a nazi, that germany sucks, he'd probably says something like: "ye, its cold, women are ugly and our government stinks... but all in all its fine" i never heard any german saying that germany is great or that he loves to be a german.
this could be a german specific thing. french and spanish ppl i met were different. but spain gone through the franquism without such a cut like in germany, and france always had an high patriotism... i guess because the whole world loves france... (funny eh? they completely lost in ww2 and were conquered, was freed by us and uk and still was counted as one of the 4 most important winning nations) but even those french and spanish ppl i met didnt show that pride and patriotism like the us ppl.

if any nazi would get to power in the us, every door would be open for him and he'd have an easy game.

@ kira
i didnt talk to you about obama... lol, why should i have changed your view about him?

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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Mon 15 Nov 2010, 11:29 am

Ha, I appreciate the vote of confidence Kira, but Wehr and I are of similar analytical skill, just coming from opposite ends of the spectrum. Even if we weren't, we are in different fields of expertise. He has the advantage on me when it comes to business/econ, if it weren't for <em>The Economist</em> and input from various liberal and conservative business-savvy people I know, I would have had to stay out of the debate in the first place. But I've investigated it enough to know it's certainly not a case of "Obama is an idiot," a claim that I believe Wehr is exaggerating from his true opinion or that comes from politics more than economics.
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KiraOrLight
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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Mon 15 Nov 2010, 11:38 am

No lol I mean a while back in synergy. We weren't talking about Obama, we were talking about something else.
@Nick Wehr came very close to preforming an ad homeniem attack on me... So yeah. I guess I'm kinda biased cuz I share your views on this, so I see his reasoning as illogical, while when looked at through his lens, I'm sureit makes perfect sense. All I am saying is that I want a little more proof for his statements. You have provided that, therefore I'm willing to accept it. He has, to me, not given enough reason for why it will reduce jobs and why Obama is an idiot on that front. Economist is awesome though. I've got that one one side of me, Sky Mall stolen from an airplane on the other. Yep, I'm a REAL intellectual.
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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Mon 15 Nov 2010, 7:30 pm

@Nick, I care that millions are out of work and have lost their jobs. Many have become homeless. You and Kira are lucky to not be suffering the way that some are now. It is outrageous that a president would do anything to hinder economic growth and Obama has indeeed done that.

@Xaso, you know I love Germany and have family connections. As I grew up and read all I did it just saddened me that WWI and WWII ever happened.

I'm up early to go do paperwork at office. Some big meetings today. I'll try to read everything and defend myself later.

PS- Xaso, I do not get much, if any, of what I say from the media. Read Albert Speer's autobiography too. From his perspective you will see no other country in the world could match the military production levels of the USA during WWII. Once we entered the war it was a pure numbers game and Germany could not beat our output. You, being a history major, should read a lot of autobiographies.
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Phoenix
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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Mon 15 Nov 2010, 8:19 pm

Wehr what the fly a kite can you do? If the work isnt there the work isnt there, simple as that. Im in the same situation of currently being out of work, im just fortunate enough that i have family who can keep a roof over my head. If the demand for work isnt there, that obviously rebounds onto the person who is trained to do it. You can be a skilled at a job as you like, but if the job doesnt need doing, your no use to anybody. Maybe it is the governments fault, maybe it isnt. Pahaps they could have seen it sooner, but even then it doesnt mean anything would have been any different.

Point of the matter is that at the minute work isnt there. The country is in too much dept to be getting people into employment unless the work is necessary. Roosevelts new deal was the last i heard of the government creating work in order to get people into employment when the work was technically unnecessary. For all the good that the new deal did, getting america back into economic stabillity, he had many critics. People said that the work he created was not necessary and that the money he was pouring into getting people working again was being wasted on pointless causes.

But today's situation is different, you can apply the same criterea here. The county is in too much dept to be making schemes like that, it would mean pouring even more money back into the economy, money that we dont have. Its a spiral of depression, Problem is that because so many people are looking for work, employers can afford to be more selective of who does their work. They can employ somebody from poland (no offence to anybody polish) who will work for minimum wage without any fuss, rather than somebody from england who has better prospects, is used to better working salary, and therefore will expect more. But because more and more people are out of work, it means more and more people have to claim benefits from the state. The country is in too much dept to allow claims to go ahead, without getting that additional money from somewhere, as a result tax and national insurance goes up, vat rises, and everybody in work ends up loosing more more money to keep the people out of work living their lives. Companies themselves then have to pay more money just to keep the current workforce in employment (as they too have to meet tax demands) and therefore make cutbacks regarding the work that needs doing. The govenment then has to try and give everybody out of work enough money to keep thier heads above water, whilst trying to create surplus money from tax to pay off the outstanding depts. So tax and national insurance as vat are moved into "overkill" in order to not only survive but claw back the deficit. As a result, Banks become much less likely to loan money out because they cannot be guarenteed payback in such an unstable econimic state, therefore intrest rates and inflation are compromised creating yet more repercussions. As a result people cant make long term investments such as buying a new car, a laptop or get a foot on the property ladder, meaning all those industries go into yet further decline.

A vicious cycle, dont you see how complecated it is. You talk of obama as if he is hindering economic growth, but how can the economy grow? In order to start a growth cycle somebody somewhere has to have some money, because in order to create work you need money to start with, if the country is in masses of dept, where does that money come from? The depts must be repaid before any industry can grow.

Still, look to the horizon, its a sad state of affairs but the saving grace is that economics is all "swings and roundabouts", sooner or later it with pick up again. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Mon 15 Nov 2010, 8:33 pm

Look at following graph:

http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/gdp_glance.htm

Look what's happened to GDP since Q4 2009. Q1 2010 it was like 3.6 percent. Q2 2010 it was 1.7. Q3 2010 it was 2 percent. And more people live in the streets. But I guess that's ok with you 2. Kira worries about healthcare when people can't even afford to eat. You need to wake up kid.

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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Mon 15 Nov 2010, 8:35 pm

Guess us in the UK are damn lucky to have the NHS system, ive never fully appreciated it, but its probably one of the best in the world...
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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Mon 15 Nov 2010, 8:49 pm

My point Phoenix is: The govt. can't create the jobs everyone needs. Only economic growth and the private sector can. The govt. keeps meddling in the affairs of the private sector via new rules/regulations etc.... is only going to keep business on the sidelines not knowing what to do. Look at the GDP numbers I put in post above. Economy was growing nicely in Q4 2009 then it fell off a cliff. Obama's BS caused this. Nick brought up the stimulus package to argue his point. I made no reference to this prior. It was the proper thing to do and TARP started under the Bush administration. Perhaps hundreds of banks would have gone bankrupt if these programs had not been initiated. I think there would have been another great depression minus that program. But now we are embarking on QE2, Quantitative Easing II. We are basically printing more dollars and debasing our currency. This is so f'ing not great. If Obama had done everything right we may not have even needed QE2. But now the fed is desperate to get the economy growing. It's so bad you people can't even comprehend it. QE2 is causing the markets to go up currently. It's not because things are great.

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KiraOrLight
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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Mon 15 Nov 2010, 11:53 pm

We are
debasing" our currency so that our products will be undervalued and therefore more attractive to overseas buyers. The reason that we needed healthcare passed is that midterms were coming up. It can be statistically shown that there is always some kind of backlash during midterms. If this was going to happen, it needed to happen NOW. The lack of regulation in the private sector allowed all of these shady loans and deals to be going on. With MORE regulation, this might have never happened. Another example of companies needed more regulation: The Gulf of Mexico.
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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Tue 16 Nov 2010, 12:57 am

Kira, the chinese yuan doesn't float against the dollar. So how are our goods going to be cheaper in China? The fed is trying to keep interest rates low. They are using the play money to buy back govt. securities. How will the cost of inputs (particularly energy and natural resources) going thru the roof make our goods cheaper? Go buy an ounce of gold kid. Have you seen what's happened to silver prices over the last year? Now oil is beginning to move. Just watch gas prices over the next couple years.

Go talk to small/medium business owners and ask them how much the health insurance premiums have gone up already due to Obamacare. I do almost daily. One thing that pisses me off is my health insurance is going to go up like 45 percent because of the minimized youth discount. Now I have to pay way more because I have to subsidize 60 yr. olds. Pretty much everyone of working age is going to see their premiums go thru the roof. But I guess you know that Kira because you pay for your own health insurance.

Obama should have gone after things that truly makes our healthcare so expensive, like lawsuits. If you compare the US to the rest of the world we are by far the most litigious country in the world. I think it's like 80 percent of all the civil suits in the world are in the USA. If you want to make health care more affordable put limits on the awards people can receive in such suits. Limit lawyers to costs plus 50k. Then see how many lawyers want to sue doctors.

You don't know much kid. Just wait til you 24. You will know what an idiot you were at 15.

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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Tue 16 Nov 2010, 4:58 am

So why did Obama take these actions that will hinder our economy, yet also hurt his political party, and lower his approval rating? Being an econ minor I'm sure you understand that he and others believed it was the best thing to do, which is why he and others did it. Is there no argument in support of it that you can think of, even knowing that there must be one for him and those people who agreed with it?

As for the GDP graph, I see it plummeting before Obama, and making a sharp turnaround once he's in office. Growth is growth, and despite his supposedly poor choices growth still increased once again from Q2 2010 to Q3 2010.

I agree, Wehr, that you don't make choices that hinder the economy in poor economic times. Maintaining a war is a good example. I contest your claim that the choices were bad, however, and would ask you to play Devil's Advocate for the sake of discussion. <em>Truly</em> attempt to play it, not just take on a Stephen Colbert-esque mockery. We could use your expertise on the subject in analyzing the decisions from a liberal perspective, because as long as the conservative undertones are so transparent (eg - "Obamacare," even though Congress created it and millions of Americans support it) it's difficult to believe your harshness against Obama is substantially objective.
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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Tue 16 Nov 2010, 5:40 am

If you seriously want to discuss I will explain more to you later. But when you see the GDP numbers you must realize they are quarter to quarter. We have not had near enough sustained growth to recoup the jobs we've lost. It would take numerous quarters above 3 percent GDP to regain those jobs. At 1.7 and 2 percent GDP we are not netting enough positive job growth to make a dent in employment numbers. Look at current unemployment rate.

I believe Obama and the democrats had an agenda to pass the healthcare bill regardless of the consequences. It had a very negative impact on consumer/business sentiment. Seriously, I believe it shaved off somewhere between 1-2 percent GDP growth. Again, I state there were better ways and other areas that should be addressed in the area of healthcare expenses. Obama has done absolutely nothing to address the costs of lawsuits to the healthcare industry. Maybe because he's a lawyer???

My views are not politcally based. They are academic. I was hopeful Obama would bring change but not this kind. I'm a moderate just right of center.

Heathcare could have waited. FINREG yes, healthcare reform when he did it no. People are hurting right now and getting them jobs is more important.

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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Tue 16 Nov 2010, 6:48 am

Gotcha. Well, personally, I think the overall positive effects to our society due to the foundation created by the healthcare reform is worth the GDP growth hit taken as a result of it. As I mentioned before, according to some experts it could <em>not</em> have waited because it would not have been passed if not now.
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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Tue 16 Nov 2010, 9:14 am

@ wehr
and you should only read autobiographies. its one of the worst sources for history facts you can ever use. if you want something you can discuss with, you need a synopsis from diverse sources.
and what you said about the military production of the us and their role after entering the war in europe is nothing in opposite to what i say. i just wanted to point out that the usa used the world war as an economic coup as well. selling the weapons, and let the other nations fight in europe, and then enter the battle to be the ultimate victor.

idk if this was just the natural devolepemnt of this discussion, that you ended up talkin about current economy of the usa, leaving the original topic behind, ignoring my topics and its major points ^^. or if its just anothe proof of the fixation towards the own country of the us ppl...

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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Tue 16 Nov 2010, 11:04 am

@xaso, you haven't read it. i've read various sources. i'm just giving you one from a german who was in the know. it's nice to see you judge b4 you read, or fact check with other sources. i've read a great deal my friend. it's funny cuz the other day you said, "ich weiss nicht" in server. to which I responded, "was soll es bedueten". you missed it totally. was a joke. maybe you should read more german poetry too.

@nick, well i'm sure his policies will cost jobs. talk to me 2 years from now. tell me where unemployment is then. see if we get back to 5 percent unemployment. see if Obama is here come next election. then we can revisit this subject.

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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Tue 16 Nov 2010, 11:36 am

mhh... i've read it. but i wanted to tell you that i wouldnt trust an autobiograhpy in the first place.
and i am quite sure ive read more about the second world war (at least what was takin place in europe... not so much in asia). and im even more sure about the poetry. and idk what is has to do with "ich weiss nicht" und "was soll es bedeuten"

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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Tue 16 Nov 2010, 11:46 am

yeah, you know how i came to read it. i was reading a great deal of books regarding economics at the time. John Kenneth Galbraith's autobiography was quite interesting as well. he was a canadian economist who was educated at harvard. was sent over to europe after the end of the war to assess the situation and really is the man behind the marshall plan. On a side note he knew JFK and his brother Joseph (who was killed in WW2). Some neat insights on JFK.

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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Tue 16 Nov 2010, 12:01 pm

mhh... that wasnt a real answer on what ive said, was it? my main point is that i dont trust autobiographies. at least not when its about facts and the truth about developements and happenings.
and with your interest you cant deny, that the ww2 was a economic blessing for the usa

...

Ich glaube, die Wellen verschlingen
Am Ende Schiffer und Kahn;
Und das hat mit ihrem Singen
Die Loreley getan.

yep... i didnt connect the two sentences ^^... ich weiss nich = idk for me, and i didnt pay attention lol

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PostSubject: Re: The Neo nazis is back   Tue 16 Nov 2010, 12:04 pm

the usa did not ask for or want war. those decisions were made in your country my friend.

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