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 No freedom of speech in SOL

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wehr



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PostSubject: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 12:55 pm

First topic message reminder :

So much for sunrise of liberty. I just received a pm from Xaso and he deleted a post i made to Boogieman. I guess freedom of speech does not apply in SOL now. And thanks to Ralen for locking a topic that the latest posts had nothing to do with race. Also, I have a big problem with Xaso censuring any of my posts due to our history on forums. Here is a new word for Xaso in english: recusal.

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Kernow Pilgrim
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 2:54 pm

Boss even you are lying to yourself when you say I do nothing on the SoL server but abuse. Your definition of administrative abuse is equivalent to calling a poke in the tummy 'assault'. When I administrate I try to make the best possible atmosphere for everyone possible by creating fun for newer players and enforcing the laming rules with the more experianced fighters so it's a fairspread match. Hell when I'm in the mood I'm willing to indulge a bored Euro fighter in the hangar for 10 mins of ffa or so just for their own satisfacton: in my book it's all about self-sacrifice for anothers benefit. It's a thankless task when laming between them is going on left, right and center and I can only watch one person at a time. Thus when people get lamed they blame my hypocrisy at the promotion of 'fairplay' simply for me not noticing the lame.

I know /amlogin is administrative abuse in your eyes but I didn't use any administrative command when you threatened to take down the server, nor when you lamed me and nor when you insulted and typekilled others. You know the laming rules and despite your open disregard for them you still openly break them. It's nothing to do with me and quite frankly I'm just an excuse. If I am an abusive admin that deserves to have the entire server I administrate taken down to be 'taught a lesson' then bring down Ca and ATS and Dark for their server administration that is far less tolerant, patient and understanding than mine. Our culture of playing the game is different from yours, we will respect and obey whatever interpretation you have on your server thus it is considered neutral to return the favour. It's a tiring lecture Boss and it's not like you don't know it - We've been going in circles around this for over two years.



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darthboss



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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 2:57 pm

And yet I never crashed SOL but now... when you crossed a certain limit...
I dont play on CA or DARK and I brought down ATS today , and I will brining it down in the future , they are like a plague, but even them have ppl that play there that dont deserve the crashing shit I m doing.

Lets just finish this endless debate about lamers banning and admin abuse and find a middle solution and make everyone happy.
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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 3:00 pm

Yeah I know the people who challenge you to lame that you're talking about, the combination of those people and lamers are the bane of trying to be a good admin. It is a difficult moral call to make and we struggle with trying to be fair all the time.

As for the Euro server, we were already going back to USA anyway. It provides much better administration options and the ping is more appealing to a larger audience of anti-laming players. USA server is more ideal for our community as a general rule.

So now there is the issue of reporting disagreements over the use of admin. Our HC admins have access to the server logs to help us interpret an event, but it really helps if the participants involved all respectfully voice their version of the story on the forums. It also helps if there are videos of the event to use as evidence. But you must always be willing to approach us <em>respectfully</em> on the forums before going on a laming rampge, lagging the server in-game, or attacking it outside of game. As long as you communicate your disagreements over admin decisions respectfully over the forums, we can investigate the validity of the admins actions. Sound good?
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darthboss



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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 3:04 pm

Jo.
I am willing to do that if you guys are willing to talk before banning for 1 week Smile
Guys like Kernow shd be banned , they shd format C and never come back.

I m kidding Smile
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 3:05 pm

indeed.
but hunting down n0obs til ragequit also makes it die faster.
sol is a welcome server for newbs. they shall come and have a look, they shall not be thrown into the game like into a dark forest while winter time.
this requires a rather calm atmosphere. we enjoy the calm atmoshpere, where you only fight ppl when u feel in the mood of fighting them. if not you do something else, duel, chat etc. thats why that calm atmosphere is part of the rules.
thats why it seems so especially aggressive to us if someone comes to the server to break that rule especially, because there are enough servers that doesnt have that rule... thats why we react so severe to your eyes. but to me it doesnt even seem severe. it seems severe to me how you guys treat each other.

but if youre problem is a image of the admin is someone who you shall rather leave in peace, because hes something better than u, then its somethign which we didnt intend. admins were ment to bring variety to the server and make that basic rule of the atmoshpere being kept. but unfortunately admins are just players and thus play sometimes than just observing what happens to others. thats why it happens that they may react then, when they're affected personally by laming.
but we try to act equal on that: anyone who is lamed, feel harassed, shall be defended. unfortunately it happens often enough that ppl are fed up by someone and want him banned, and want to provoke a reaction by the admin, so that they are provoking certain ppl. in such situations the admin may react or not. depends on how careful he is, or how much he likes or dislikes the lamer, or the beggar. that may seem unjust to someone. but as i said: rarely bans happen... maybe sleeping or freezing. but i never saw it used as a punishment, i saw it used as a possibility to calm down the situation. to give space to talk. and sometimes the affected person reacts severe and reconnects to lame more and to get deaf. or he instantly lags... like devy used to do it.

what would help? follow the rules... i mean: hangar is free for laming. and everywhere else is just meant to treat anyone sle with respect and politeness. with no aggression there wont be a problem: if you'd duel there and dont start a major ffa.
and in situations when you have to do with an admin, you shouldnt provoke him by insulting or saying "cmon ban me u abuser". just be true and say: "i dont want to be banned". the choice of words determines if its going to be a fight or a compromice. just as you could see in this topic.

if it would please you to know that admins shall not use admins to defend themselves, so in situations when they are lamed or harassed, then i can understand it. i guess someone who really deserves a ban is not only hunting admins ^^.

but forgive me if i may seem demanding: but in the end its still our server and i see no reason why others cant be used if you want to do something that is breaking our rules...

edit: gosh i write too much and type too slow

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Ashly
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 3:06 pm

WHAT IS WITH THE PROBLEM HERE I DONT FEEL LIKE READING!!!!!!!


@darthboss But i like kerny
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darthboss



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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 3:10 pm

I like him too as a jk2 player , he's so serious , and takes everything so seriously.
A funny guy but a pro admin... admin powers corrupt ppl , I know cuz i ve been there.
I abused everyone when euro was popular .

And yes Xaso you're right SOL is a place for newbs to be able to play , and I know that , thats why I stopped the crash and tried to talk to u guys.
I tried yesterday too but merel was so brave that he banned me on sight so I had to retaliate.

Now , noobs must be protected , to keep jk2 aliev , I agree with that , EUROs didnt do that , thats why euro jk2 is dead , and thats why you guys shd get an euro server , there are ppl there that could play and have fun as well.

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Kernow Pilgrim
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 3:11 pm

I agree the act of taking out your anger on people that don't deserve it is injustice. Many of us have done it inadvertantly at times. As for the people who provoke you to lame - I call them provocative lamers and their goading to make you and others break the rules is just as immature and abusive. That's why when I give two people who are arguing against eachother about laming my full attention, I make sure I identify who provokes the argument and who reacts to it. The former is more in the wrong and I never treat an attack on a provocative lamer an official lame.

And agreeing with Nick - As Wehr as done in this post he hasn't gone and blown up the server because of what Xaso has done (with the best intentions). Talking of which Wehr - Give me the link of the topic you wish to be unlocked and I'll do it. As for your relationship with Xaso, well just keep out of eachothers wake as each will react to the other just as bad.

I've already sussed the unfeasability of keeping the lesser experianced American fairplayers and Euro fighters in perfect harmony, both are cultural opposites to the other. However I always find it best to recall almost a year ago - When you, Boss, were fully in tune and supportive of our new system - Which fully outlined the same laming rules and guidelines yet without an administrative hierarchy. In essence Wolf provoked me to think (if you account is correct about breaking down ATS for the member's benefit) that you yourself are a credit to the clans formation. A bit of a weird thing to say but in essence true if your account is honest. So why can't this same Boss that we saw in December 09 be the same Boss now?

I agree with Nick on this new use of administration - It's nothing that will change my administrative usage as every handicap I install on a lamer is for the benefit of the people he is harassing not for my personally amusement/gain for score. But we'll have to take it to council for a formal agreement - Only fair and what's best for the clan.

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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 3:11 pm

Immediately following an incident however, we must take some action to protect the people being lamed. Of course there are warnings/sleeps before bans, but if the harassment continues a ban must be made to prevent continued harassment in the moment. So maybe we adopt a policy like this:

If an admin determines that a lamer is breaking the rules of harassing a non-admin and the next course of action is a ban, the admin may make that ban but also must create a topic in a new "Ban Appeals" forum listing information about the lamer and their version of the story. At any time the person who was banned can respond in the topic with their version of the story, and that thread can be used to work out whether the punishment is sustained or overturned. If the punishment is sustained, a punishment duration will be posted, and in the event that the admins don't unban the lamer on time, he or she can post in that topic to remind them that their punishment is up.

Any comments on that idea? Does it address the issue of talking before banning for 1 week?
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 3:12 pm

i think the location of a server isnt important in the first place. the server was and is popular. i think the more urgent problem is the the issues we've got on it. and i think we're on a good way when we jsut could be friendlier to each other : >

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Ashly
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 3:13 pm

OOC: Anyone have any idea why i have -8 Karma Points *Raises eyebrow* and yes my hands are on my hips everytime I stop walking
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 3:14 pm

you have -8 karma because you post alot in spaces where its not fitting. : > some ppl find it very disturbing.

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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 3:15 pm

Oh also, if an admin doesn't make a topic in the ban appeals forum within 24 hours or so of the incident, a request from the banned player to be unbanned must result in the next available admin immediately unbanning them. Kind of like how you must be read your rights in USA or the case gets thrown out. Razz
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Ashly
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 3:16 pm

Oh gee thanks! now im mad at you and How close is Euro to canada
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 3:17 pm

D: i never gave you -8 karma... but i will if you dont figure out the msn thingy. you never appear online to me... did you bock me accidently?

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Ashly
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 3:18 pm

maybe my msn has that problem and im not always online im online now though
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darthboss



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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 3:24 pm

Nick is right.
We need more control on the admins.
We need to be able to fight back... without hax crash etc , some legit way.
I support that idea.
Public debate for bans.

Kernow you'll still have to format C Smile
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Ashly
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 3:28 pm

If i were admin id pwn ive been admin for more than 10 servers Before mostly on jk3
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mereel
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 4:25 pm

Good to see you really want to talk and work things out Boss. :]
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Ashly
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 4:29 pm

HALP im feeling all shakey
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darthboss



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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 9:22 pm

Dont shed tears about karma ASHLY.
I have -18 =))
People must really love me here.

And Merel , half of the things that happened are your fault for being so brave and ban me right after we talked Razz
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Battledroidlover
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Mon 29 Nov 2010, 10:53 pm

Eh? I didnt know freedom of speech exsisted on Planet Earth anymore.
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Phoenix
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Tue 30 Nov 2010, 2:06 am

@Boss, you are like a shit that just wont flush. Wink
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Boogieman
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Tue 30 Nov 2010, 4:23 am

Nick and Kernow english is so good and spoken like real gentlemen. I guess all members in sol does that. I agree with the 'darkforest' theory and a calm atmosphere. its the best solution to keep the newbs in ur arms and help them out that much as a possible and try to recruit them and offer them the best training and treating to make them improve their skills in jk2 instead of fearing clans and servers.
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Ajunta Pall
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PostSubject: Re: No freedom of speech in SOL   Tue 30 Nov 2010, 6:01 am

+1 for last boogie's point.

You'll notice that people looking for an admin to help them are always the skill less people.
When someone annoys you, you pwn him if his lower than you, or you run and c r y at admins if he's better than you. That's how it works. People need to learn to fight, to be able to defend themselves. Boss won't c r y at an admin if any sol random lames him lol, and that's just one example on 1000.

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:
When I administrate I try to make the best possible atmosphere for everyone possible by creating fun for newer players and enforcing the laming rules with the more experianced fighters so it's a fairspread match.
Is that irony ? where is the fairspreaded match ?
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