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 For the Future.

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Lord_Draco
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PostSubject: For the Future.   Fri 23 Sep 2011, 9:41 pm

So here it is, a topic I have been planning to do for a while. It's my opinion of the state of the clan and the direction it chooses to go, highlighting things that could do with changing to be more correct(AKA would work better and would benefit the clan more than what is currently in place) for a clan of our type. Of course, this is all based off my opinions and predictions, so do not be offended if I state something matter-of-factly that you disagree with. Also, I shall not look at this thread until a suitable number of days has passed, as I would rather not partake in any more destructive debates, I hope that this shall be my second-to-last long thread (the last being my "farewell" thread when that time comes), as I intend to speak my voice in a more clear and concise manner from now on.

I have chosen to take a backseat for a while and see how things have played out since the last time I have spoken out in interest of this clan's(if you can even call it that anymore) future. It still hurtles down the path of destruction, slowly killing itself. While yes it could be attributed to the JK2 community itself dying, I refuse to believe that is not the sole cause and that the way things are currently conducted is hastening it's death.

SoL is not a clan as much as it appears to be a hybrid of a militant and political organization dedicated to the eradication of players we deem as unsavory or harmful, banning such players while speaking in a manner that is diplomatic and apparently friendly. Though I can't say that is not expected of a democracy. The only people who ever communicate between each other are those who have a job to do, had a job to do, or are potentially going to have a job to do. No one feels like it is a responsibility to actually go and inform our new recruits on how things work around here (or if any do, far too few do). People need to feel like they are in on something being a part of a clan. How many people feel that way? I could venture a guess on that myself and probably be correct. If you don't feel like you are in on something special, you don't feel any real sort of closeness to your clanmates, a tag is simply not enough.

I firmly believe SoL has more or less foraken most if not all of its core values. You may call our heated debates over matters "progress", you may call the existence of a skill-minded system that dictates advancement within the clan "another way to have fun", and you may call our forums "necessary", But I have other opinions on these.

Our arguments do not stay friendly, often turning into flame wars. This in turn results in multi-page threads and forum drama. Both of which run rampant as of late. This causes much stress and separates members from each other. Is this really congruent with friendship? Is this the kind of interaction we really want as friends?

Our tourney system deep down does stress skill over how you represent SoL and its values as without working to attain skill, you can't win and instead you wait longer. I find it not really fair that someone who is good at fighting and has a tendency to be coc/ky has a better chance at winning than someone who is always nice, willing to help others, and is very humble that is not so skilled at fighting. The fact that advancement is skill-driven also dictates that we are quite possibly skill-minded, and of course the existence of Total Tourney does not help. Even if it is just for fun...

The fact that these forums are more active than the server appalls me. The only thing we REALLY need the forums for is for the recruit polls, member polls, tourney reports (both TT and rank tourneys), and elections. Maybe ACTUALLY IMPORTANT discussion too. This is one thing where synergy went wrong. While it is a nice system, allowing one to effectively speak their mind on things. It leaves too much room open for debate. This kind of system needs to have a character limit established for replies, then I think it'd be perfect. People could reply but only could say what they needed to, not making long posts that distract people from the point, not allowing you to pretty up your opinion into a little speech, but simply allowing you to convey your opinion in a fashion that is straight to the point. We should really discuss most matters on the server. This idea serves two purposes: To encourage more people to get on regularly, and to allow more realistic discussion.

Now we come back to the closeness of the clan members. Like I stated before, I don't really know of anyone actually taking the time to inform recruits about how SoL works. Furthermore, members have no responsibilities other than to behave themselves as someone in SoL should. I feel that members should feel it is their responsibility to teach members. I also feel we should have regularly scheduled clan events. This point is threefold: It will allow members to bond, and it will also generate some activity, It also gives people a reason to look forward to coming on. The constant debates and drama that is created from it serves as a negative element that separates members, it needs to cease as well. Our "discussions" are far from civil. Losing a rank tourney is also quite a negative element, for some, it leaves a bitter taste. People will bear grudges if it's in their nature. Because in the context of it being a tournament where your advancement is at stake, one person gets royally screwed over. Such a tourney has no place as the sole method of advancement in a clan like ours.

Next is activity. The thread on that speaks enough for me to believe that the server is frequently dead. Of course, no one really looks forward to getting on a server with no one to hang out with. No one looks forward to getting on a server if they can only look forward to players disrupting things. No one looks forward to getting on a server where there is nothing to look forward to doing on it. And of course, no one looks forward to getting on an empty server. Of course, regularly scheduled gatherings where we play FRIENDLY games of CTF, TFFA, or do random custom maps, would probably solve all the activity problems except for the lamer problem. But even then, we could have more members on. More members on == more people to gang these lamers.

All in all, I really feel that this forum is a negative element for our clan. We're supposed to be a fun, lighthearted clan that still has the capacity to deal with those who cause problems. The fact that the majority of all important things happen on the forum draws everyone here instead of the server. Our constant arguing about things that should be for the betterment of the clan don't unify us, they divide us, they make us look like we are all about serious business. We look like a debate clan, or a model government with meaninglessly drawn out and complicated policy. We all are forgetting that there is a game to play. After all, we are a GAMING clan. We have to change, we have to make things better.

Eventually, there will be no tomorrow for this clan if nothing changes, and the Sunrise of Liberty will never be gazed upon by JK2 players again...

We need to change things for a better future.
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Fri 23 Sep 2011, 11:15 pm

sorry draco. this is a flawed post. youre not active enough to judge anything.
and youre probably the worst rolemodel for the things you propose.
but you dont really propose much, the more you do is complain and make things bad. so you dont have to wonder, when ppl feel attacked by YOU. (when i dont wonder when ppl feel attacked by me)

but let me highlight for you, and those who are interested, some things you fail on.

since you gone inactive, there were no destructive arguments.

we have only 4 ppl banned at the moment, and there were only a very few bans in the last time. 2 of those gonna be unbanned, because its unreported bans.

the skill is not overrated in the clan. and even in the destructive argument you may have in mind while writing that, when we discussed about cyan, we figured that it needs more values than skill for it.

and if you try to say that asshole-ppl are rising in ranks though nice ppl with sol in their heart are being skipped, then give me ONE example... i doubt that that ever happened.

the introduction of the recruits to the clan is a duty for everyone. its an individual problem. the clan cant really help that. maybe we did too much when we wrote all those text, ppl can read if they have questions, for both members and applicants.
but i'd say where shall our members get the examplfe for fulfilling their individual dutys if even the admins and moderators arent fulfilling them. i mean... if they see lord draco, who is a forum moderator, never being on the forum, why should they ever be bothered to do something for the clan and its recruits?
i dont like it when ppl accuse misbehaviour though they are doing it as well.

draco, how about working instead of ranting. you could take things into your hands and start introducing new ppl, you could start being on the server and play the diplomat, you could start talkin to the ppl and solve their problems, and you may do it on the server, if you think the forum is unhealthy for discussions.
and i see you already started using the member conversation instead of the synergy. it underlines how you deem the synergy unuseful. but tbh... doesnt make too much of a difference for me

but if you wanna start healthy discussions i propose you do some reasonable work, instead of complaining and attacking Smile

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Lucifer
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sat 24 Sep 2011, 12:09 am

Im not going to give much of a opinion on this, the only thing that really bothers me now, is that new recruits are not trained accordly to what our dueling rules have taught us in the past. No bowing, no respect or honor in each duel, and hey even a few grounds kill in TOURNEYS!. All in all(no offense to the recruits) is that we are lacking the discipline of teaching the younger generation of what he knew when he were first part of this clan. Respecting and honoring each duel... Now, it's all about bans, guns emp and other things..
We dont need a heavy remake with the clan, just for the younger generation to learn what we learned.
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mantA



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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sat 24 Sep 2011, 1:35 am

Well ok in some points you might be right, draco, but things is that sometimes when a player asked for ffa, then ppl join the mass ffa session and things are solved, so at least of gaming is there. Ok speaking about laming and chatkills, i know it s annoying but it s technically solveable. Also the critical accusatuon about the sol system, well i think that is realy complex and might not have to do much with gaming but yeah i saw the same like you do now, before i joined sol. But the system has something special in there which keep the ppl hangin around in certain discussions and also a model to keep them active , bc there are "possible" rank-ups to gain special position to perform more certain things under its responsibility. Or gained the rank up bc of certain contribution what the clan needs as well.

But yes activity is a real matter of the game when the game is old and boring. Not all ppl can be online bc of certain reasons like woelrk , study, family or friends out of da house etc. And also second reason is that there are also idiots out there who just mess everything.
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Igrom



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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sat 24 Sep 2011, 2:04 am

Xaso already used the word "flawed" concerning your post, so I'll move a step further: it's so broken it hurts; it sounds like a cheap president campaign parody.

Quote :
I have chosen to take a backseat for a while and see how things have
played out since the last time I have spoken out in interest of this
clan's(if you can even call it that anymore) future. It still hurtles
down the path of destruction, slowly killing itself. While yes it could
be attributed to the JK2 community itself dying, I refuse to believe
that is not the sole cause and that the way things are currently
conducted is hastening it's death.

"Take a backseat" ? What's that, a substitute phrase for inactivity ? How come you're asking people to save the clan from its so-called impending doom when you swiftly dropped your role as a member ? Instead of keeping up the fight with the evil system, you ditched us just to come back sometime later and spread the rant. Where's the logic in that ?

Quote :
No one feels like it is a responsibility to actually go and inform our
new recruits on how things work around here (or if any do, far too few
do). People need to feel like they are in on something being a part of a
clan. How many people feel that way? I could venture a guess on that
myself and probably be correct. If you don't feel like you are in on
something special, you don't feel any real sort of closeness to your
clanmates, a tag is simply not enough.

What's the questionnaire for ? The SoL System topic, the rules and ranks ? Why do people ignore advices to not type one-liners as answers ?

I'm certain you've made this paragraph up on-the-fly. Mind showing me a few examples to back up your theory ? Whenever a recruit raises a question, the are always at least two voices ready to give an answer. Saying that "few do" is a blatant lie, which can be disproved simply by, *cough cough*, being active on the server. Forum, as well.

If people don't seek friendships, that's their choice. Those who do, though, find plenty. I doubt you'll find that special something if you separate yourself from the rest.

Quote :
Our tourney system deep down does stress skill over how you represent
SoL and its values as without working to attain skill, you can't win and
instead you wait longer. I find it not really fair that someone who is
good at fighting and has a tendency to be coc/ky has a better chance at
winning than someone who is always nice, willing to help others, and is
very humble that is not so skilled at fighting. The fact that
advancement is skill-driven also dictates that we are quite possibly
skill-minded, and of course the existence of Total Tourney does not
help. Even if it is just for fun...

This gotta be my favourite paragraph. If we consider the fact that higher flames give you 0 (read: ZERO) benefits w h a t s o e v e r, what's left ? That's right, it's skill ! An indication of how far you've gotten. I feel offended by your stereotype which came out of the blue; the ones who triumph in tournaments are the cocky ? Skill doesn't materialize out of thin air; I'm constantly fighting duels just to not stay behind.

The better fighter wins, not the one who's boasting. Fυck you for this insult, Draco. No side has an advantage, preparation is all that matters: your words rob us from our righteous wins spawned from hard work, focus and tenacity.

To prove my earlier point, check the DC elections: two white and one green members are leading by a large margin of votes.

Quote :
about the forums and Synergy

So you wish people posted less ? Yeah, stripping forums is a great idea, especially when people socialize out of their free will. Synergy leaving too much room ? Fix it right away... it's not like this clan is essentially a group of members, why would they be able to voice their opinions freely ? That's just sick. A character limit is just right: after all, your post wouldn't have made the cut; and I'm left baffled after reading your complaint about speeches - your post looks like it's been stylized after a communistic manifesto, for God's sake !
"Eventually, there will be no tomorrow for this clan if nothing changes, and the Sunrise of Liberty will never be gazed upon by JK2 players again... We need to change things for a better future". You tried so hard to make it seem like a serious post, I'm practically dying from laughter.

Quote :
I also feel we should have regularly scheduled clan events. (and the reasoning behind it)

A proper point, there was a debate on which hours the CTFs should be. This is not by any means a case of merely snapping fingers, someone has to supervise the event.

By the way, it's safe to say that over 75% of the CTF polls I start on the server meet with disapproval.

Quote :
activity

Haha oh wow, you're saying we need more members on ? Why not do something then instead of, err, "taking a back seat" ? Hahahaha. Come on, the gametracker says you've played under two hours under your name on the new server !

What you're demanding in this post is your personal utopia to be created with others' hands while not giving anything in return. Truth be told, what hit me the most was the constant usage of "our clan, our ". You might be a SoL member, might have played a vital role back in the day but now you're the most narcissistic man I've ever met; I don't regret anything I've written here.


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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sat 24 Sep 2011, 3:14 am

true... his personal utopia, which means that he is the one who may attack ppl and nag, without getting contra. but when someone gives contra to him, he complains about the "destructive arguing". ^^ most "destructive arguing" i remember is dracos fault xD
and that he does with more things. look to the care for recruits or the activity he demands... demands from others, but not from himself.

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Skambak
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sat 24 Sep 2011, 4:46 am

Dammit igrom, I wish you couldn't read my mind anymore. Same to you xaso D:<
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Lord_Draco
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sat 24 Sep 2011, 11:39 am

This is what I am talking about. You people are so wrapped up in stating what about someone says you think is wrong. That's what I meant by "destructive" debate. You never aim to focus on what you do agree with. Instead it's always a constant bashing about what is wrong in your eyes.

This is why you will always be blind, always. Blind to the truth of the matter, blind to how the values of this clan have been forsaken. You guys will always be politicians, uncaring about how true to the clan you actually are. As long as you look good to the general group, that's all fine with you. It's people like you, Igrom, and Xasomur that I do not have any respect for, due to how you dwell majorly on the negative going as far as elaborately bashing it. You could just civilly say "I disagree with it, here's why". This is why I disagree with Xaso saying most of that arguing was my fault, that and because he likes to call things "flawed".

For once, take a step back and look at what's wrong. Sure, some of my logic is flawed, but not all of it. You know this to be true as well. But this unintentional "flawing" of my logic has simply proven a point yet again.

As far as the "backseat" thing goes. I was not inactive(on the forums at least), believe me. I was observing things, not taking part in much if anything. Of course such an endeavor goes unnoticed as I intended it to not be noticed. I know more than you give me credit for.

Also, this post was just a start. I DO intend to work towards realizing this as well. I wanted to merely get the opinions of members of the clan before I determined if it was even worth struggling for.

Damn it... another somewhat long post. Also, it was much sooner than I had intended to post. But things had to be said.
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sat 24 Sep 2011, 1:16 pm

lol, this is funny.
he makes a post in which he has no point and then complains that we point out, that there is nothing right in it. what did you expect? that we accept all of your unreasonable ranting, while you give no proposal for making things better, while you dont even are a rolemodel in any kind.

lets review your post again:

paragraph 1: "I dislike where things are heading to. dont be mad if i say something wrong, but in fact idc if its wrong... i just wanna throw things out"
yea... sure...

p.2: "i gone inactive to watch sol kill itself"
wow, cool thing to do i guess.
at this point i wanna say that it was a lie to say you watched the forum. otherwise you would know there were no destructive arguing since you gone until you returned... just one instance that proves that either you've never been here or your observing was crap.

p3: "Sol is a bunch of banning admins and uncaring power seekers"
well, first of all, like already pointed out, 4 ppl banned, of which 2 got unbanned today, because no-one claimed the unreported bans.
second: to say that only those ppl who want to have admin, or who already have admin are willign to communicate is kind of ridiculous to say, and the way you say it a pure insult. in fact: those ppl who communicate much and are active, are very suitable for obtaining admin...
on the other hand the most NEW ppl joining sol are old players, and the other ones are already close friend of someone else, so there always is someone caring... but how can you know... you didnt give ANY example, which is another prove of your unreasonability.

p4: "my next points to rant about: destructive arguing, skill hype and forum hype"
oh yea... lets see

p5: "the argues are destructive and part the clan 'as of late' "
and again: since you've been gone, no destructive arguments. but let me point out that some of the destructive arguments werent destructive at all. the drama about sindy caused a new cyan system which does stress values over skill. it didnt really cause a friction between me and sindy. of course we had some problems with each other, but even without that drama, we would have those problems. and lately we get along better. and i dont think that swallowing my negative opinion bout that occasion would have lead me to ever accept cindy as valuable as i do now. the only thing that drama did, was giving you and mereel more ammo for shooting against me Razz but you would have found that anyway Smile
and that medal discussions ended it a medal reform, and now there are no complains anymore, there is no hype.
and again i wanna point out that most of the destructive arguing also is based on yours and mereels input. recalling the HC drama or the drama about aju's rq, where YOU broke the closing of the topic, which only was meant to get aju to an admission or to cause a friction, which was inevitable. the drama was made by you and mereel.
and yet, in the cases where those discussions had no considerable outcome, the friction created was only between ppl where it already existed. in other words, they were just the expression of a feud. a feud between me and you for instance. nothing more. and thats your fault as it is mine Smile

p6: "skill hype over values"
just wrong. as iggy pointed out:
Iggy wrote:
This gotta be my favourite paragraph. If we consider the fact that higher flames give you 0 (read: ZERO) benefits w h a t s o e v e r, what's left ? That's right, it's skill ! An indication of how far you've gotten. I feel offended by your stereotype which came out of the blue; the ones who triumph in tournaments are the cocky ? Skill doesn't materialize out of thin air; I'm constantly fighting duels just to not stay behind.

The better fighter wins, not the one who's boasting. Fυck you for this insult, Draco. No side has an advantage, preparation is all that matters: your words rob us from our righteous wins spawned from hard work, focus and tenacity.
and i would like to add again: since the cyan reformation, values are stressed over skill even more. so screw that paragraph as well.

p7: "we need nearly every forum on the website, but synergy bugs me. ppl abuse it by being mean, so restrict the posting. lets use the server for discussions"
very ridiulous. normally its YOU who stress cliches... but this time lemme stress the freedom of speech. why should we restrict the communication? because of destructive arguing? wrong way. try to restrict the destructive arguing, not the communication. (best thing YOU can do draco, at this point, is to stop posting Smile )
and do you really think, that cutting down the synergy is helpful? ppl will just post somewhere else... and it creates more mess, instead of keeping it ordered.
and doing the discussions live on server was already tried and failed. ppl cant access the server at the same time, just consider time differences. and you cant keep the control over the discussion. too many ppl saying something. you cant effectivly discuss.

p8: "ppl should care more for each other. they have no such responsabilites, but they should. we need scheduled clan events, apart from competetive ones"
well, first of all you seem to not even know about sol. because you say sol members have no responsabilites for the new ones, they only need to behave like a good sol... well, it IS part of being a good sol to care for the recruits. and in fact, if you would have read the sol system, you knew that.
on the other hand, many new recruits are old players, who dont need the same type of guidance. or they are friends of someone in sol, which makes them join, so they already have someone who cares for them. we even have a padawan/master system to enforce such relationships.
and what kind of scheduled clan events you talk about, that cant be like a tournament? you condemn the forum discussions... and the server is ... well it is a gaming server lol... for a game about... fighting... which is, by its very meaning... competetive. erm... much nonsense of yours here, maybe it would have helped to actually give a proposal instead of only complaining Smile

p9: "server is empty. we need to get more ppl on, maybe by ctf/tffa or custom maps. then we can fight lamers"
lamers arent the problem at the moment Smile most of our former lamers have settled down and those who came here to cause trouble learned their lesson and dont play here anymore, things seemed to have changed since the 3 strike ban reform.
but how can you know that, if youre never there? how can we get YOU to the game? you like the clan fight months ago... but well, today you seem to avoid competetive and skill-based interactions. but if you still like them, how about... ARRANGE THEM... get your ass up and do something.
on the other hadn i just wanna point out, we have such a low time on the server every year, and the activity will come back. atm the b server seems to be very active, because they hand out the admin to anybody who asks. but in time, when its winter again, the server will be more active again, and we can get over all this "server is dead" shit.

p10: "forum is only adding serious argues to the clan, which should play instead."
oh cmon, how shallow is that? who wants to play can play... no-one HAS to visit the forum. we even HAVE ppl who posted their app, and never join the forum again Smile those who visit the forum want to do it, and they chose to take part at this social-networking side of sol. and thats what makes sol unique. and everyone who causes drama or who suffers drama, could have caused it on the server as well. But those who are really active on the forum, also visit the server. the forum does keep them visiting the server.
i wouldnt play without the forum Smile
and everyone who dislikes the drama on the forum, can just ignore it and just play. maybe you should do that.

so now that i wasted so much time considering again what you said, and searched something that i could agree on, i found nothing. so you cant expect anyone, after such a load of nonsense, to be happy with it Smile
maybe this was your freaky way to prove that our argues can be destructive... make a topic, with absolutely no helpful content, and then complain about ppl's reaction :] smart
but like i already said, even when this is destructive now, the only friction that could be caused, is a friction that already exists. maybe you will finally learn and start making some helpful proposals, or supporting your complaints with fitting and specific examples... or you just start being a good rolemodel. you fail at each.

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Lord_Draco
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sat 24 Sep 2011, 3:21 pm

Your points in that post are so off-base and fail so hard. I feel no need to refute them. After all, twisted words prove themselves wrong all on their own.

I can't take anything you say seriously because of your habitual attacks on what I say. I firmly believe that all parties in a debate have equal footing. But as soon as a party blatantly attacks another, the attacking party loses credibility as they can not be seen as totally rational.

There is no such thing as a pointless post, and if there ever was such a thing, it would be a blank post.

So anyway, I shall take time to more clearly state some things I said.


On the Forum: I do not like that almost everything that can happen of any import to the clan happens on the forum, which is supposed to be a secondary front to the clan. I do not totally condemn discussion on the forum, I merely condemn how it is clearly more important than the server.

On Synergy: I feel it is a good system, except for the fact that people twist it into a debates section. We're supposed to be rationally, civilly, and calmly discussing things. I feel that with a character limit, people could only say what is truly needed. We don't need pretty speeches, or a "long post club". That is not truly necessary. The only long posts should be ones that outline new ideas.

On the tourney/rank system: I like the structure of the tourneys themselves. I just dislike what their purpose is for. Skill should not be necessary for advancement in the clan. I do not care if the ranks do grant no benefits. It's not nice that one advances at the cost of another waiting longer to do so themselves, is that really fair?

On the arguing: I know I am at fault for this argument. I should have known that people like Xaso or Igrom would chew the post up and turn it into a firefight. This could have gone so much better. You guys could have PMed me about how you disliked things with your "it's so broken..." nonsense. It's possible to look at it in a level-headed fashion and reply with "i agree with this because..." and "I disagree with this because...". This is why I would prefer some sort of character limit, so people can discuss in a more to-the-point manner. Of course I take responsibility for wording it as it was and I do apologize for that. However, no one looks at the underlying matter: things are not all correct with the clan. We used to be able to discuss things without the dramatic long posts and without this crappy debate.


On Activity: I realize I have not been active in-game. But does that make me wrong in saying that the server is not that active? The fact that I have not been that active on the server is the only valid thing you have on me. But I could easily ask someone who would tell me what I already have said. "The server is not that active". Let me tell you what can cause inactivity. Real life can cause it, having nothing to really look forward to can cause it, the presence of particular players can cause it, and other such things.

What I intended the post to do was to get suggestions to improve the clan's state of affairs. I also intended it to see who agreed with what points and disagreed with what points. Finally, I also intended it to see who could rationally respond to a rant on the clan and what I felt was right and wrong. Manta and Luci, you get a cookie, you stated what you agreed with and disagreed with WITHOUT attacking. I'm happy to know that there exist some people in the clan who are capable of being rational about things. The post, worded as it was, was not actually intent to be an attack on anything, and if I did offend someone, I truly am sorry.

But I am not standing down. I really do believe that the things highlighted in that post are indeed wrong with the clan.
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Skambak
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sat 24 Sep 2011, 4:32 pm

Won't say this again xaso. Stop it. It's not funny.


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Lord Draco wrote:
Your points in that post are so off-base and fail so hard. I feel no need to refute them. After all, twisted words prove themselves wrong all on their own.

I laughed, heavily. Why wouldn't you refute points. Just tell us why they are so off-based, because I bet most of us see where we're going and what are we doing.


Lord Draco wrote:
But I am not standing down. I really do believe that the things highlighted in that post are indeed wrong with the clan.


Do you really know what's wrong with you?... Alcohol... (nah, just kidding) ... You're not tanking this as a way of having fun, like a normal videogame. With THIS I mean the clan, the forum, the server, everything. You have to chill out a little.

Everyone here thinks different and that makes us stronger, because we mix ideas, we fix up things that went wrong. Mistakes are a way of learning: if we are "destroying" the clan, we'll learn, sooner or later, not to do it (sorry, lack of language skills).



Lord Draco wrote:
On the Forum: blah blah blah blah blah


The forum is another way to connect the clan! Cmon! Many ppl can't play, so they use this forums, you should appreciate that we use forum for both things: keep in touch with distanced members and talking about thins that concerns th clan. Am I wrong? Of course you're right. There are more topics about unimportant matters than others that affect directly both the clan and server. So what?



Mr. blah blah wrote:
I should have known that people like Xaso or Igrom would chew the post up and turn it into a firefight

You should have included me and everyone who has posted something here, not only ppl with long posts Wink. Furthermore.. I wouldn't say a firefight, I'd better call it a constructive debate

I don't wanna "argue" anymore because this will only cause hatred among us, and noone wants that
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sat 24 Sep 2011, 4:59 pm

Some valid points, I appreciate that you did not totally attack what you did not agree with.

@Your first point: He twisted my words, that in itself refutes the points he makes. It makes him look more like a jerk than someone who actually wants to discuss things.

@Your second Point: I'll take note of that. It is true that we all think differently. But fine, I will not be so forward about particular aspects of what I posted. I will however strongly pursue the implementation of clan events and more rational discussion, as arguing is not fun when people are pushing each others buttons, and clan events would be fun.

@Your third point: I get you, I do agree that the forum is indeed a way to connect to the clan. I never said anything about getting rid of it entirely. I merely suggest that we have more of our important things take place in the server as well. We could have recruitment ceremonies for new recruits, as well as other things like that. Just so that we have more of our important stuff happening on the main front of the clan, our server.

@Your fourth point: Mr. Blah blah says: you did not post anything that represented your own views specifically, merely that other people "read your mind" you did not chew a post up, personally attacking what I said. Mr. Blah blah also says: I call it a firefight when there are people who are attacking each other. Is attacking someone constructive? No it is not. Luci did not attack what he did not agree with, nor did manta. Igrom and Xaso were the only ones who really went out of their way to attack me.

I want the arguing to stop too. That's one of the reasons I started this thread. Arguments cause hatred. Hatred causes disconnection between clan members. We used to be able to discuss new ideas civilly and kept things friendly. This is why I would like if people stopped making long posts as counters for other posts. It is fully possible to state your opinion in a civil way without writing a speech on it. I feel that if we could try to keep our posts shorter, we would eventually learn the true form of constructive debate, where only opinions are shared and not insults.
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sat 24 Sep 2011, 7:45 pm

First of all i see you xaso + igrom vs draco: just stop that "attack each other thing" if you are going to argurle about the same points all the time it goes to nowhere. Draco seems to point out that some things shoukd be improved because he thinks that some things can " go wrong with the clan itself". But what igrom and xaso are doin is defending the arguments which comes to a redirect attack to draco again. If you see this, that wont be called "constructive debation" or how you call this.

I know this post might be off the topic what you are currently discussing but here in this post i want to say: "poease low down your voices and try finding solutions".
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sat 24 Sep 2011, 8:40 pm

Draco for you point on skill minded politics - You cannot become a forum/server admin or a councillor through being skilled and coc/ky. You can only gain a materialistic flame that has some indicator of experience and time served in the clan.

For your suggestion on synergy I find it an unnecessary restriction to the extension in which people can speak their minds.

Personally Draco I think all the applicants feel welcomed, it's not as if we ignore their applications. If they complete the questionnaire they should have all required knowledge of how the clan works. What is left is for us to welcome the candidate and answer the questions they have, which they do. I additionally add information messages informing them when their poll is out, if they have passed and what additional privileges they have.

As for members feeling a greater bond through scheduled events, we feel a 'schedule' unnecessary. I agree with you that more fun needs to be made on the server, in fact if you wanted this I would've voted for you to receive administration on the server so you could realised this desire. Admins have the power and SHOULD (but don't) have the creativity to make the server as fun as possible. When I was an admin I made fun tournaments, roleplay, gametypes for additional and varied fun. It was my responsibility to do that. This will enforce activity also.


As for the drama, the arguments, the conflict, it is the natural and unavoidable result of a community of over seventy members, with a democratic system enforcing that an independent voice and opinion is crucial. The only solution is to cut our numbers so our community is more concentrated (leading to a firmer bond between members) or establish an autocratic system. Either way I think you would detest.


The problem here is that you don't have the spark of enjoyment with the clan anymore, you have no positive outlook and probably don't want to see one:


Draco wrote:
SoL is not a clan as much as it appears to be a hybrid of a militant and political organization dedicated to the eradication of players we deem as unsavory or harmful, banning such players while speaking in a manner that is diplomatic and apparently friendly.

If that's how you see us, you're obviously not one of us. Sad


I agree with Xaso's last paragraph in his first reply. Draco - be the change you want to see in this clan.

Sind wrote:
Im not going to give much of a opinion on this, the only thing that really bothers me now, is that new recruits are not trained accordly to what our dueling rules have taught us in the past. No bowing, no respect or honor in each duel, and hey even a few grounds kill in TOURNEYS!. All in all(no offense to the recruits) is that we are lacking the discipline of teaching the younger generation of what he knew when he were first part of this clan. Respecting and honoring each duel... Now, it's all about bans, guns emp and other things..
We dont need a heavy remake with the clan, just for the younger generation to learn what we learned.

+++


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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sat 24 Sep 2011, 11:35 pm

The reason for my heavily negative attitude towards Draco stems from the fact that he's got the guts to mercilessly rant about a multitude of aspects while simultaneously:

a) commiting acts of hipocrisy:

1. Server activity, too few members on
2. "I was observing things (on the forums)", saying it in a positive manner
3. Dissing on making pretty speeches

b) using arguments not linked to proof:

4. Recruits being left behind, not receiving any help
5. The good have a disadvantage against the bad in tournaments

c) using illogical/false claims

6. skill is the sole way of advancement
7. attacking/defending in threads

a)

1. You can't *make* players visit the server, especially as you are one of the least active clan members, both forums and server-wise.

2. There's this term, "lurking".

Wikipedia wrote:
In Internet culture, a lurker is a person who reads discussions on a message board, newsgroup, chatroom, file sharing or other interactive system, but rarely or never participates actively.

You used the term "take a back seat", which is directly tied with this definition. By lurking, you are not participating in the clan's life: you are a stagnant existence, not contributing one bit, not supporting your ideals. You wrote: "We could have recruitment ceremonies for new recruits, as well as other things like that". I'm not sure how it would work out, but it's an idea alright. You are supposed to man up, devote some time and enforce it with your hands; what you're doing instead is putting the weight of the job onto others and blaming them for their neglience.

3. You are striving to be as eloquent as possible, using it as a shield masking the shortage of constructive arguments. You named the topic "For the Future", making it sound like a dramatic proclamation. You wrapped up the post with a poetic metaphor. If this isn't an effort to put up a speech, then... *speechless*.

The last point is also linked to this.

b)

4. You're talking about on-server events when you're physically not able to be there to witness them - some sort of doublethink, perhaps ? Whenever I am on, the recruits have no problem whatsoever with assimilating with the clan. What Lucifer said might be right, though I haven't seen any ground kills myself and these mistakes can be rectified simply by warning them. The fun fact is, the most effortless way to do it would be just by playing with them while stressing the rules: that's how you set up an example. I'm slightly disappointed that you're dismissing our work put in explaining the etiquette to our recruits as nonexistant/tiny.

Summing up: join the others and do what they do. I can name at least five RECENT recruits right on-the-fly who I've (just ONE person) helped: Kazma, nVidia, Chaplin, Dzirtanis, ShAhAlI; Ducky as well.
How many can you ?

5. Thank you for confirming my point that ranks don't reap any real benefits.

Some time ago, Tim Skywalker was irritated by the way how medals discriminate between members and are generally unfair; what you're doing is repeating that narrow-sighted mindview. As the game's premise is fighting (someone said it before in this thread), it's only natural that it should serve a purpose. What's more, skill has no direct connection to being arrogant; it is a result of the time you put into polishing your skills - that way it is independent of your nature. Can you point the skilled and haughty on the member list to prove your stereotype ?

People look forward to their tourneys. Perhaps not all of them, but they aren't forced to participate*. The very purpose of flames is outlined in the Ranks section, their names: "knowledge, skill, learning, mastery, legends". ALL they represent is skill.
(continued)

c)

(continued)
6. To clarify my previous point: Tim mistook medals, a simple prize, for a symbol of recognition. He wanted to "exist" in the clan, to be respected by clanmates. However, this is false respect; you can't get it, you can't "advance" simply by winning tournaments. The cocky shall find no place in a clan like this, as skill is not *the* deciding factor; if only, being cocky makes it harder for you to coexist in a society. Once again I point you to our running DC elections. Not a single yellow flame or higher among the current winners. How does that relate to your words ?

*just yesterday I had a talk with Dan. He's been a white flame for a moderate amount of time... he said he's content with this. Well, after all, the flame is just an Unicode character.

7. High words are just words, in the end; they convey the same message. Your post, in a way, attacks the people who do what they believe is right, accusing the end results as, well, shit (unsatisfactory just doesn't cut it here).

harsh words incoming

By acting as a rightful, "arguments spawn hatred" pacifist, you're conducting your attack as a first strike; having said everything, you retreat not unlike a coward. When someone shares your view at least in a bit, it's fine, they get a cookie; but if someone like me or Xaso finds your words hurting and untruthful, you raise the hatred flag, trying to circle around our arguments the safe way, not enforcing the truth YOU believe in. As a former high-ranking member of a thriving game community, I've come to loathe this stance. I've put forward my arguments while giving concrete examples. You, on the other hand, DID NOT relate to them and instead lunged in my direction in an ad hominem, tightly holding your "hatred, you're disqualified!" flag. What's disturbing is that I am not ashamed to say I openly dislike you, while you're desperately trying to act as a perfect man, masking your shortcomings.

You'd dismissed Xaso's post as wrong in every aspect, basing it on his quote-twisting. Unfortunately, you can't use that ace to deflect my previous one; this one, as well.

Last two things: for one, your vision of forums is beyond help. The word 'forums' itself is the key ! It's not only about you, everyone has a say in this matter. Threads make people discuss things not only with you, but with each other as well; that's why stopping public debates short in their tracks using PMs is wrong.

And the other thing is: if you really had browsed the forums regularly as you said, you'd have known that we had virtually none of your "flamewars" when you were out.


Last edited by Igrom on Sat 24 Sep 2011, 11:44 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sat 24 Sep 2011, 11:35 pm

i'd give -karma to everyone above for such long posts -_-'

There's just one thing i'd like to highlight about draco's post ( indeed i didn't read the rest lol ), is that the forum might indeed be an obstacle to server activity. To get news about the clan, talk, people don't go server but forum : server is always empty. The forum is indeed the heart of the clan, but it musn't be a wall for the rest, so i think a solution would be to limitate the usages of the forum, like not having 2 pages categories in just a clan forum.

Like for example, we keep 1 non public, 1 council + synergy, 1 for elections + members, 1 for turneys, and 1 for random speaking ( in which you'll have like a mix of general conversation + cantina + multimedia ) for example, so it would limitate the usage of forum, and for members to keep interaction with clan, they would need to visit more server.

That's all i have to say Smile
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sat 24 Sep 2011, 11:42 pm

Yeah, merging convo, cantina and games/movies is a good idea, karma for that. However, I'm not sure how well it'd work out with synergy, as having distinct lines between subforum topics is easy on the eyes... I feel it would be mightily confusing, all four together.

(maybe only FA + Moderators ? They are alike in terms of functions)
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Ajunta Pall
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sun 25 Sep 2011, 12:13 am

lemme show you :

Non public

Council
  • Council commitment ( + medals )
  • Server synergy
  • Forum synergy ( using your idea ^^ )


Members
  • Clan commitment ( Members conversation + The clan )
  • Elections ( Council + Adminstration )


Recruiting
  • Questionnaires
  • Recruits Polls
  • Members Polls


General
  • General conversation ( Cantina + general conversation )
  • Multimedia ( including Screenshots/videos, Games/movies, and Maps/mods )


Competition
  • Rank Tournaments
  • TT ( Should hide subcategories ^^ )
  • Clan v Clan


History ( with the medals too )


This lets you delete 2 categories, minimize the random speaking topics, and merge things which can be.
Goal is to make people spend less time on forum, so that if they have 2 free hours, they don't spend 1h30 on forum and 30mins on server, but opposite.
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sun 25 Sep 2011, 12:47 am

Fine by me, I guess.
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Lord_Draco
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sun 25 Sep 2011, 2:04 am

I am liking the idea.

That would be a good step forward. If we can schedule clan events, this would also help greatly. Thing is, we need admins who are willing to be around for CTF matches or map changes, though we should also think of things to do that do not require the presence of admins.
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sun 25 Sep 2011, 2:07 am

i still find it funny, that draco cant be man enough to take account of things i say, just because the way i say it. though i gave him a closer review on things said. sure, i didnt have to rephrase him, i could have quoted. but i would have wanted to know where i miss his basic point. where did i really twist his words?
but iggy is right, he just used it as an excuse not to answer to it Smile and there we have the next hypocricity: he condemns the long post and the drama, but cant manage to create a constructive discussion, or a discussiona t all. he vests his opinion in long, nice worded speeches, and dismisses every disagreeing, no matter which way it comes, may it be my ranting or igroms analysis and response. he only underlines those who merely agree with him. in fact i rather have wehr, who openly rants, and who's interests are clear, even if they are mislead. but i cant get along with this kind of demagogy and propaganda.

@ aju
the forum may be a wall for someone like you. if you wanted to play, you may got stuck in this forum. but really: if you wanna play straight away, you go to the server, no matter what happens on the forum. you only get stuck in the forum if you involve into the clan more deeply. and you can always stop doing that.
but for everyone who doesnt play jk2 for a self-focused journey to gain skill and to compete, but plays it for a communicative and social factor, may rather leave the game completely, if there was no forum. and as sol is more of the second kind, i say that this clan and this way of playing, would be dead without the plenty offers this forum has Smile

but well, lets see if i can shorten the forum a bit Smile

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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sun 25 Sep 2011, 3:25 am

I like aju's proposal, and I kinda agree with xaso
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sun 25 Sep 2011, 3:31 am

yea, i agree with aju too, we can get our forum shorter Smile in time it got so long, that you have to scroll so much. and some forums are needless, because ppl post anyway where they want Smile
gimme some time to figure out what the best technical solution is

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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sun 25 Sep 2011, 3:43 am

why can't you get into in a mid agreement xaso ? I just say getting forum littler, making it shorter to spend time on, that's all, no need to get mad at me, you're getting on my nerves too.
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sun 25 Sep 2011, 4:00 am

I think the forum should be shortened in categories but not to the degree that Aju suggests.

Also people assume by enforcing little activity on the forum activity will blossom on the server, this won't happen. The server will remain inactive and the forum will be more inactive than usual, it's just a sure method to make the entire clan inactive.

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