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 For the Future.

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Lord_Draco
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PostSubject: For the Future.   Fri 23 Sep 2011, 9:41 pm

First topic message reminder :

So here it is, a topic I have been planning to do for a while. It's my opinion of the state of the clan and the direction it chooses to go, highlighting things that could do with changing to be more correct(AKA would work better and would benefit the clan more than what is currently in place) for a clan of our type. Of course, this is all based off my opinions and predictions, so do not be offended if I state something matter-of-factly that you disagree with. Also, I shall not look at this thread until a suitable number of days has passed, as I would rather not partake in any more destructive debates, I hope that this shall be my second-to-last long thread (the last being my "farewell" thread when that time comes), as I intend to speak my voice in a more clear and concise manner from now on.

I have chosen to take a backseat for a while and see how things have played out since the last time I have spoken out in interest of this clan's(if you can even call it that anymore) future. It still hurtles down the path of destruction, slowly killing itself. While yes it could be attributed to the JK2 community itself dying, I refuse to believe that is not the sole cause and that the way things are currently conducted is hastening it's death.

SoL is not a clan as much as it appears to be a hybrid of a militant and political organization dedicated to the eradication of players we deem as unsavory or harmful, banning such players while speaking in a manner that is diplomatic and apparently friendly. Though I can't say that is not expected of a democracy. The only people who ever communicate between each other are those who have a job to do, had a job to do, or are potentially going to have a job to do. No one feels like it is a responsibility to actually go and inform our new recruits on how things work around here (or if any do, far too few do). People need to feel like they are in on something being a part of a clan. How many people feel that way? I could venture a guess on that myself and probably be correct. If you don't feel like you are in on something special, you don't feel any real sort of closeness to your clanmates, a tag is simply not enough.

I firmly believe SoL has more or less foraken most if not all of its core values. You may call our heated debates over matters "progress", you may call the existence of a skill-minded system that dictates advancement within the clan "another way to have fun", and you may call our forums "necessary", But I have other opinions on these.

Our arguments do not stay friendly, often turning into flame wars. This in turn results in multi-page threads and forum drama. Both of which run rampant as of late. This causes much stress and separates members from each other. Is this really congruent with friendship? Is this the kind of interaction we really want as friends?

Our tourney system deep down does stress skill over how you represent SoL and its values as without working to attain skill, you can't win and instead you wait longer. I find it not really fair that someone who is good at fighting and has a tendency to be coc/ky has a better chance at winning than someone who is always nice, willing to help others, and is very humble that is not so skilled at fighting. The fact that advancement is skill-driven also dictates that we are quite possibly skill-minded, and of course the existence of Total Tourney does not help. Even if it is just for fun...

The fact that these forums are more active than the server appalls me. The only thing we REALLY need the forums for is for the recruit polls, member polls, tourney reports (both TT and rank tourneys), and elections. Maybe ACTUALLY IMPORTANT discussion too. This is one thing where synergy went wrong. While it is a nice system, allowing one to effectively speak their mind on things. It leaves too much room open for debate. This kind of system needs to have a character limit established for replies, then I think it'd be perfect. People could reply but only could say what they needed to, not making long posts that distract people from the point, not allowing you to pretty up your opinion into a little speech, but simply allowing you to convey your opinion in a fashion that is straight to the point. We should really discuss most matters on the server. This idea serves two purposes: To encourage more people to get on regularly, and to allow more realistic discussion.

Now we come back to the closeness of the clan members. Like I stated before, I don't really know of anyone actually taking the time to inform recruits about how SoL works. Furthermore, members have no responsibilities other than to behave themselves as someone in SoL should. I feel that members should feel it is their responsibility to teach members. I also feel we should have regularly scheduled clan events. This point is threefold: It will allow members to bond, and it will also generate some activity, It also gives people a reason to look forward to coming on. The constant debates and drama that is created from it serves as a negative element that separates members, it needs to cease as well. Our "discussions" are far from civil. Losing a rank tourney is also quite a negative element, for some, it leaves a bitter taste. People will bear grudges if it's in their nature. Because in the context of it being a tournament where your advancement is at stake, one person gets royally screwed over. Such a tourney has no place as the sole method of advancement in a clan like ours.

Next is activity. The thread on that speaks enough for me to believe that the server is frequently dead. Of course, no one really looks forward to getting on a server with no one to hang out with. No one looks forward to getting on a server if they can only look forward to players disrupting things. No one looks forward to getting on a server where there is nothing to look forward to doing on it. And of course, no one looks forward to getting on an empty server. Of course, regularly scheduled gatherings where we play FRIENDLY games of CTF, TFFA, or do random custom maps, would probably solve all the activity problems except for the lamer problem. But even then, we could have more members on. More members on == more people to gang these lamers.

All in all, I really feel that this forum is a negative element for our clan. We're supposed to be a fun, lighthearted clan that still has the capacity to deal with those who cause problems. The fact that the majority of all important things happen on the forum draws everyone here instead of the server. Our constant arguing about things that should be for the betterment of the clan don't unify us, they divide us, they make us look like we are all about serious business. We look like a debate clan, or a model government with meaninglessly drawn out and complicated policy. We all are forgetting that there is a game to play. After all, we are a GAMING clan. We have to change, we have to make things better.

Eventually, there will be no tomorrow for this clan if nothing changes, and the Sunrise of Liberty will never be gazed upon by JK2 players again...

We need to change things for a better future.
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sun 25 Sep 2011, 4:10 am

whut aju?? I AGREED WITH YOU!!! I SAID I WILL MAKE IT SMALLER? WTF YOU WANT?!

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Ajunta Pall
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sun 25 Sep 2011, 6:21 am

Xasomur wrote:
the forum may be a wall for someone like you. if you wanted to play, you may got stuck in this forum. but really: if you wanna play straight away, you go to the server, no matter what happens on the forum. you only get stuck in the forum if you involve into the clan more deeply. and you can always stop doing that.
but for everyone who doesnt play jk2 for a self-focused journey to gain skill and to compete, but plays it for a communicative and social factor, may rather leave the game completely, if there was no forum.

That's mean, and you know it
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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sun 25 Sep 2011, 6:51 am

I read most of Draco's post, and then I skimmed the end of it. I haven't read all the replies. I'll summarize my feelings in response to Draco's original post:
  • SoL as a militant/political organization bent on banning people: I disagree. See Xaso's point about how few people we actually have banned. We are rather lenient.
  • SoL forsaking core values: I disagree. I think what you are sensing is a lack of application of these core values, particularly the in-server community feeling. That's not the same thing as having forsaken the values; individually people can still preserve them.
  • Tournaments based on skill: Those are okay. There are a number of elements to these tournaments that reduces their reliance on skill, such as the fact that you don't go down ranks, we attempt to make them even, and a minimum time investment is required which indicates some level of commitment to the clan. The thing is, if people are not training to get better, they are not playing the game. We want our members to play the game, and having a rank system that requires them to have some level of skill requires them to play the game.
  • Forums more active than server: That's okay. In many ways it is an indication that people value the community more than the gameplay itself. I'm okay with this.
  • Closeness of clan members: This is a good point. By and large this camaraderie already exists on the forum. But we should discuss ways to encourage and enhance camaraderie while playing the game.
  • Regularly scheduled activities: A nice idea, but they always fall through. We need mini games that are fairly quick and that admins can facilitate whenever people want them, not scheduled events. An example would be tournaments for fun. You just ask people on the server if they want to participate in a tournament and then you execute it. More spontaneous mini games like this should be devised.
  • Forum is a negative thing: I disagree. The organization is a necessity and has facilitated the majority of our success, and it helps us stay in touch with a community even when we don't feel like playing the game itself.
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Sun 25 Sep 2011, 9:31 am

lol aju. i basically said, ppl liek you may feel the forum is a wall keeping ppl from the game. ppl like me feel it like the only connection between me and the the game.
and how many other ppl are like you aju?
asked the other way: how many ppl you think are really held off from the game by the forum instead of totally be gone from jk2 without it?

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Skambak
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Mon 26 Sep 2011, 1:14 pm

We are reaching the point now
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Kernow Pilgrim
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Thu 29 Sep 2011, 11:07 am

Which is better in your mind - A server and no forum? Or a forum and no server?


In my mind - SoL is a clan based community with the obvious thematic concern for JK2. Yet for me, the community is 'the game'. Like a lot of the older SoL generation we have little or no time to play JK2 nowadays, but I'm as much a member of the clan now as I was when I was playing eight hours a day.


Old farts like myself enjoy communicating with others on the forum, catching up on some clan news, seeing who the new recruits are, and enjoying some political debate on the council. Playing the game is a fun bonus reminding us of our days of innocence when we were thinking "OMG I HAVE A SABRE! *szzzoom szzriing szrroom*"

For me SoL is here in our records of history and friendship, and not to sound too cliche - in my emotional attachment to everyone as a whole.

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mantA



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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Thu 29 Sep 2011, 5:33 pm

Same same. Well some guilds say they mostly have a server but no forum. But where wwill the ppl go if there s no one to speak with, if not being able to be in game?
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PostSubject: Re: For the Future.   Today at 1:38 am

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