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 A council reformation proposal

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Kernow Pilgrim
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PostSubject: A council reformation proposal   Wed 21 Dec 2011, 12:01 am

Over the last couple terms I have seen the same traits in the council. Lately we have had dwindling inactivity, and those who are active now (With the exception of Vader and a couple others), already hold administrative positions. The commoner seats always become vacant in one way or another, and I can't remember the last time where one of our leading council members was a commoner.

I think considering our situation of inevitable inactivity (comparing to earlier years), we need to make a smaller council, so it is more likely we will acheive active discussions and ball pushing in the clan. I propose that from the start of next term we have 5 council members, and not seven. One seat is open to a commoner and the remaining four seats are open to any administrative/moderator. I think despite our ideology of group representation the only group needing a good represenatation has been the people without the power, commoners, and over the last terms the dictate of having to choose two commoners results in their inactivity from council discussions.

I think a 5 man council (with a majority still being four or three approvals?), will mean more compact debates with a high likelyhood of a strong working team. Maintaining a seven man council when there simply aren't enough good and active candidates to take the seats will be fruitless, and will end up with me (or Xaso) just pushing all balls of discussion, which I feel I did this term, and what I don't want.

What do you guys think?

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solid snake
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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Wed 21 Dec 2011, 1:15 am

Maybe 6 council members?? 2 commonners, 2 sever admins and 2 forum admins?? But that idea goes as well i think.
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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Wed 21 Dec 2011, 1:35 am

Thank you for noticing kernow ^^

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Kernow Pilgrim
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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Wed 21 Dec 2011, 1:40 am

Well Snake I always thought that the argument of inequality towards the commoners would come up because I propose to take away one of their seats. The thing is in ALL of our council terms it has been the commoners who are the first to drop out, only answering to important discussions, and even then they are prompted via PM by myself Neutral

Over the last few terms council has really been run by four members, who are the minimum needed to actually run the council. Rarely have we had discussions taking up all active seven opinions of all councillors.

Plus an even number is unfeasible, as it could lead to a stalemate of opinion. Odd numbers means we have an approval one way or another.

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Ajunta Pall
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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Wed 21 Dec 2011, 1:41 am

no solid, there's no need to keep big council anymore, 5 is largely enough. And maybe still too much ...
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solid snake
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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Wed 21 Dec 2011, 3:53 am

I just don't find it fair for commonners it's the same how you put it it wont feel it fair for them the voice of commonners would be so little in my eyes. Of course this is my oppinion. What do others think?
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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Wed 21 Dec 2011, 6:07 am

Snake I understand how you feel and credit your morality towards equality, but we've given the commoners a voice for two years, and they've never used it in the council. What two commoners here and now do you think can maintain active and dedicated discussion in the council?

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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Wed 21 Dec 2011, 6:52 am

I agree, sometimes the special groups are used by some members for decorative purpose. But for the reduction of the council members, all members have to make a general vote again to fill up the council seats. That means the current councillors seats will emptied and set to 5 peoples or watever it is decided (it s not decided yet) and then a general vote for the seats.

But on the other hand,how many of us are active? i personally rarely visit sol server, so i am not active in game that often. The amount of active members depends on the amount of the future council member seats.
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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Wed 21 Dec 2011, 2:29 pm

ker, i thought about the same. i even thought about 3 ppl...
1 server admin
1 moderator/admin
1 commoner

otherwise i cant think of a way to have a good balance between the parts...
2 admins, 2 moderator, 1 commoner?
2 admins, 1 moderator, 2 commoners?
1 admin, 2 moderators, 2 commoners?

and even if we take the moderators and admins together its ending up the same... its 4 admins and 1 commoner... that makes 4 ppl to overrule 1. and now it depends on how important that one is to us. if that commoner seat is important to us, then we can also go with 2 admins in the council. as we saw this term discussions can also happen well in synergy forums with participation of council members. it wouldnt be a much of a loss to have less people in the council needed to validate the decsision made...

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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Wed 21 Dec 2011, 3:45 pm

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:
and I can't remember the last time where one of our leading council members was a commoner.

Wink
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Leonardo
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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Wed 21 Dec 2011, 5:33 pm

Lol what do you mean "leading" council member? Honestly I think that we shouldn't make this a popularity contest anymore. I mean yeah politics aren't perfect but we might as well make it fair. No more señority or side taking or any such BS. We want more democracy...well boom, roasted.
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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Wed 21 Dec 2011, 10:30 pm

welll boom roasted yourself tim, then please whats more democracy? cmon dude... enlighten us how to bring that into reality...

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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Thu 22 Dec 2011, 12:46 am

Ok with the exceptions of Phoe and mantA Razz

I see your point Xaso - and I'm ok with a three man council.

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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Thu 22 Dec 2011, 1:00 am

GUYS cmon, there are less then 15 active members in this clan, less than 50 active players in this game, stop getting head aches on such stuff. Make it simple and don't try to please everyone cuz you won't manage to please everyone, but try to make the clan run properly.
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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Thu 22 Dec 2011, 1:39 am

solid snake wrote:
I just don't find it fair for commonners it's the same how you put it it wont feel it fair for them the voice of commonners would be so little in my eyes. Of course this is my oppinion. What do others think?
Kernow Pilgrim wrote:
Snake I understand how you feel and credit your morality towards equality, but we've given the commoners a voice for two years, and they've never used it in the council. What two commoners here and now do you think can maintain active and dedicated discussion in the council?
Agreed with snakeman, but with Kernow's argument, it has shown that the system doesnt work properly. Too less people cared about the council discussion. Also only decorate themselves whenever they want to, though they are capable of putting their voice in.

Xasomur wrote:
ker, i thought about the same. i even thought about 3 ppl...
1 server admin
1 moderator/admin
1 commoner

otherwise i cant think of a way to have a good balance between the parts...
2 admins, 2 moderator, 1 commoner?
2 admins, 1 moderator, 2 commoners?
1 admin, 2 moderators, 2 commoners?

and even if we take the moderators and admins together its ending up the same... its 4 admins and 1 commoner... that makes 4 ppl to overrule 1. and now it depends on how important that one is to us. if that commoner seat is important to us, then we can also go with 2 admins in the council. as we saw this term discussions can also happen well in synergy forums with participation of council members. it wouldnt be a much of a loss to have less people in the council needed to validate the decsision made...
If i ever chose, then this one: 2 admins, 1 moderator, 2 commoners; with the requirement of capability and activity!

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:
Ok with the exceptions of Phoe and mantA Razz

I see your point Xaso - and I'm ok with a three man council.
I dont understand what i have done there , more explaination what it s meant?

Ajunta Pall wrote:
GUYS cmon, there are less then 15 active members in this clan, less than 50 active players in this game, stop getting head aches on such stuff. Make it simple and don't try to please everyone cuz you won't manage to please everyone, but try to make the clan run properly.
That s why we have to reduce the council and such because it s useless if the clan members amount is fewer than it was years before. It s not for pleasure, it s more for the fact that we have to keep our cores stable first.
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Leonardo
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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Thu 22 Dec 2011, 4:10 am

Well Xaso it's really not all that difficult. We have a six man council consisting of 1 FA, 1 FM, 1 HC, 1 DC, and 1 commoner. In addition we elect a señor member to th council to make sure thingss run smoothly. Preferably blue flame or higher. A three man council just reminds me of the outcast, maximus, and kyle show. Either that or we restructure the council like a government, either the English or American.
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Kernow Pilgrim
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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Thu 22 Dec 2011, 4:41 am

@ mantA I meant that yourself and Phoenix were good commoner representatives, exceptions ^_^

I'm ok with 5 man council of 2 server admin, 2 forum admin and 1 commoner or a 3 man council of each. Shall we put it to a vote of these two changes and a 'no change'?


Tim wrote:
Well Xaso it's really not all that difficult. We have a six man council consisting of 1 FA, 1 FM, 1 HC, 1 DC, and 1 commoner. In addition we elect a señor member to th council to make sure thingss run smoothly. Preferably blue flame or higher. A three man council just reminds me of the outcast, maximus, and kyle show. Either that or we restructure the council like a government, either the English or American.

Tim, good effort in coming up with a system but it is essentially what we have now but just official. I have been a non-official tribunus laticlavis this term (Only Xaso will get that Razz), managing the rest. We are simply too small an active community now for seven councillors.

And re-structuring to a real life government is also what we have done within the limits of an online gaming community. So... ^_^

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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Thu 22 Dec 2011, 5:13 am

lawl ^^

@ tim
look t our inactive council. they dont take their responsabilities. at the moment its the goodwill of the "senor members" to not make the outcast-maximus-kyle show, even if its already not much more than 3 ppl activly pushing the disussions in sol. as you can see, there is no dictatorship now and do you really believe it will happen, if all we change is some bot of beaurocracy?

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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Thu 22 Dec 2011, 7:35 am

I think that those 1 admin 2 moderator 2 commoners or 2 admin 1 moderator 2 commoners. Still commoners is the biggest group in this clan some are inactive (well alot of them) but they still are the biggest group and if you think they are the most important group. I think like this. One of each is pretty good too cos council don't need to be very big necessarily.
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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Thu 22 Dec 2011, 7:57 am

most are inactive Snake, not some Razz

I agree with Snake then that we should have a 3 of each council.

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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Thu 22 Dec 2011, 8:52 am

That's why there reads (alot of them) Very Happy

3 of each?? You mean that one where there is one from every group?
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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Thu 22 Dec 2011, 9:02 am

I think if commoners are really that big, then we should put 3 men into it. other groups are ok with their size i think, only way is they do the jobs which they are needed to.
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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Thu 22 Dec 2011, 6:27 pm

Well no Xaso I don't fear a dictatorship. Just that 3 is a centralized opinion if you understand me. If not, that's why I said to structure it like a government, 2 or 3 branches that each have a specific job. Snake has a good idea too tho.
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Kernow Pilgrim
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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Thu 22 Dec 2011, 9:52 pm

Guys

People who show mature dedication, commitment and constant activity to the clan always end up getting an administrative rank. The most able managers in this clan already have an administrative position, only with a rare exception of a few people right now.

A commoner who stays a commoner for two years shows something, either immaturity or inactivity, or disinterest with the politics of the clan.

Look at the last council terms, look at this one - Rex drops out, Teddy was never active enough in council and never made a discussion of his own. The council always struggled to get majority rules lots of people were inactive.


Active contributors and debatists to the clan -

Commoners:
boogie
mantA
Vader
Phoenix
Tim

Admin:
Ajunta
Kernow
Snake
Xaso
Igrom

Others are just people who come onto the server, or post something laughable once in a blue moon.

It's even stevens, and it's small. A three man council 4 us at the moment - 1 admin, 1 moderator and 1 commoner, is fine.

Oh and these stats are taken at the end of the term, when administrative rank is weakest because a lot of people left.


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PostSubject: Re: A council reformation proposal   Fri 23 Dec 2011, 12:07 am

Im sorry guys but ive played my part as much as i can, nowadays i simply dont have the time, i wouldnt be able to cope with the workload, im far too busy with other things. Yes I've got jk2 again, but ive been on server only a handful of times since I got it back, it was mainly just to enable me to drop in from time to time, not get back into it on a serious level. I appreciate the great compliments regarding my previous contributions to the clan, but i have to accept that my days of helping with the running the clan within an integral role, are behind me.

The game has deteriorated beyond belief, to the point where i think it is beyond rescue. Therefore, im just loitering around, for old times sake, and to keep in contact with my friends. My interest in playing the game at a competitive level is as deminshed as it ever was, when i go on server i usually just converse and mess around (thats if there is actually anybody online), and I rarely duelling or get involved in ffa (the 300 - 350 ping doesnt help). Im still interested in the clan itself, but without any server activity to go with it, i would be very little use in an admin/council role, and as ive already said, my time is too constricted.

@Kernow, ive actually been on the council twice, once as a commoner, then as a moderator/DC admin Smile

But i miss the older days, like when Nick, Vort, Ali3n, Blue, Hektor, Bacara, Peace, Hora Grimmjow..etc..etc..were regular players, and even Mereel and Aju dont (too my knowladge) look to be playing much. I also miss the early SoL days, when we used to have such great debates in the council, myself, Nick, Kernow, Xaso and a few others, we could talk for days back then, and there was an immense feeling of drive and team spirit, even if we didnt always agree, we were essentially all on the same page. I used to get so absorbed into the forum, that some days i used to sit on the webpage for hours, and never get around to getting on the server, because there was always stuff going on that could be discussed! That great clansmanship of old, isnt as apparent now, i know some guys try, like kernow, xaso, solid, seb etc.. still try and play their part, but their contributions dont benefit many people, because of how much the game has nosedived, and truth be told, most of the others have either left or are inactive, and 'some' of the newer people simply too inactive or disinterested. So even though their drive and enthusiasm is still as great, its not appreciated on the same level, simple because there arent very many people to appreciate it these days.

Thats all i have to say, i guess this turned into doomspeak...sorry...
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