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 On Tim's reapproval

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Igrom



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PostSubject: On Tim's reapproval   Wed 31 Jul 2013, 8:19 am

I can't leave it like this. I know most of you hold a fairly favourable view of Tim and regard him as a friend, but with his poll running, I feel an urge to share my negative opinion of him. I'm going to include excerpts from his PMs, since he said "Idk Iggy, my cards are pretty fly a kite open right now". Plesase take some time and re-read the topics I linked to.

First time leaving the clan - http://soljk2.forumotion.com/t4213-departure
I would like to point out he used studying for exams as one of the reasons for his decision:

Tim wrote:
This year at school will be a difficult and trying time for me....and this is neccessary for me....as painful as it is. I swear to you all that I will come back wiser and stronger than ever before....but for now it is my studies that rank top priority.

Soon, it was revealed indirectly that he joined HACKS. His relation:

Tim wrote:

Okay here is the deal. I didn't explain it to Micr0 so he already hates me. I am at Hacks to learn how to mod, map, and how to use admin controls. I did not betray you, I don't plan too. There are those angry at me. Please don't be. That is the last thing I ever wanted to happen. I also didn't realize that McMonkey is waaaaaay too attached to him admin powers. I was also promised high level that still has not been presented to me. Let me put this in an analogy for you: You are promised all of the candy in a candy store but then you get there and they only give you one piece and then tell you that they don't trust you. So I was screwed xD.

Studying was a made-up justification - have in mind that he joined us a few weeks later, and I'm certain he didn't drop out of school. So he lied.
McMonkey's remark:

mcmonkey wrote:
And it has nothing to do with his leaving either way. A newer member mistakenly promised him immediate council membership and high rank upon joining, and when he didn't get it, he ragequit.

Some more lying:

Ezio wrote:
if you will just relax, and not use HACKS and AoF for our modding capability's. Nice to know your using us, as you said you were using SoL for combat training. For now, Yes, I brake my promise, because you do not seem to have the proper criteria to lead the clan in the direction wanted.

Rejoining - http://soljk2.forumotion.com/t4407-betrayal-i-am-an-obvious-idiot
Not much here to explicitly comment.

Second time leaving - http://soljk2.forumotion.com/t4871-not-my-choice-1-year-of-fair-play-equality-and-democracy

Tim wrote:
So becuase of that, I have decided to leave JK2, probably forever. I feel great remorse, mostly because I have so many friends, all over this game, and now I have to walk away from it. School is really a priority for me now, and if I work hard enough in sports and the classroom, I could be in line for a football scholarship. This has been somewhat of a Revelation for me, as I was able to experience what people all over the world are like, and I have learned a great deal that will benefit me in the future. This isn't a rage quit or me abandoning ship, I just feel like I have finally come to grips with reality.

He said that because of his studies he's leaving the game. Not the clan, the game. Compare the last sentence with these lines from his PM:

Tim wrote:

I helped AoF break from HACKS. It was basically like the ATS SoL split, just obviously much smaller (but lots of drama nonetheless). I built the AoF forum while I was still in SoL, I didnt ever plan on leaving, but SoL started to die, and soon I was the only active on the server for a while.

You get the picture, I panicked and figured I'd be clan hunting in a bit anyway. But SoL lived, and I regretted it the whole past year I've been running AoF.

Desire to play with active players is perfectly fine, but he covered up with a lie. His studies are, again, an excuse.

Sometime after Tim left SoL, there was a rumour that he might be playing in AoF. Tim claims that he purposefully let Teddy share the news that he's now known as Leonardo, but I *know* that's not how it went. I was on AoF then, and I with no doubts recall how disappointed Tim was that he'd been found out. I want to get something across: it is a great thing Tim ran a community, but he was utterly dishonest in the process.

I am not against people rejoining. If you take a look at Zelah's posts, he stated why he would leave and why he's trying to rejoin. He was honest. Now check what Tim said. In our PM exchange, I pointed that out too, and said that Zelah had played his cards open. In Tim's opinion, he himself is doing the same. Why is there a rift between his words in PMs and on public forums ?

There was one more thing that affirmed my negativity. A long time ago I visited AoF, and started challenging its members to duels. Tim was online, and I threw him the gauntlet too. I was fighting incredibly well that time, with nice long-lasting drags and blue/yellow swipes which hit. One third into the duel Tim abruptly brought his chatbox up, and then a small explosion spawned in front of him (some member command). The duel prolonged mercilessly, and I was pushed into defensive blue. I lost the duel, him at ~45/0. I burst with anger, and not simply due to losing an important match I thought I played so well in. I was certain that he cheated. The sound effects don't lie - if I hear a long sequence of that crisp flesh burning sound, I know that the drag was executed well. I was completely convinced that he should have died from all that damage. When I brought forth the accusation, all I got in return was acting innocent and making me look like a fool.
In today's PM:

Tim wrote:

Mmmm you know what I just remembered our last encounter. Sorry I'm slow to remember. You accused me of cheating in a duel on server right? You got pretty mad. I remember now. Yeah I used a bacta mid battle, I'm sorry about that.

I guess the explosion was there to mask the bacta healing sound. Tim said it without me pushing him and that has some significance, but that confession is way overdue. Besides, now that he acknowledged it, I can share the situation without the doubts I had. I sincerely think that with what he's done he should no longer be able to wear our tag. I'm not telling you to cancel your friendships.
If you guys think I'm presenting my own version of our dispute here, I will be more than happy to publish our whole PM conversation. I can play my cards open. This topic is placed in Member Chat so that the drama doesn't spill to non-members - Tim has sympathy here and he ought to be notified that it's here.
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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Wed 31 Jul 2013, 8:46 am

first off iggy, our server is once again dying with the lack of activities going on with the server, so to me, bringing back someone is kind of a need.
As to your evidence of him lying.. We all have lied at least once in this clan, some more painful than others, but we gave people chances to redeem themselves.

For example? merC, Devy, RebornMaster and others who have a much harder history than Tim.
Iggy, as of right now, we are more desperate for active members in our clan, when our clan gets another reboot, then all of us can rethink about people coming back due to their history.
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Danek
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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Wed 31 Jul 2013, 8:55 am

Does that mean you would accept Devy and Jamey at this moment of time Sind?
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Lucifer
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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Wed 31 Jul 2013, 9:40 am

sigh danek, that is not what i meant.. I meant by our pass applicants who joined our clan had a much worse history than Tim's..
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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Wed 31 Jul 2013, 9:46 am

Silly me Laughing 
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Igrom



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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Wed 31 Jul 2013, 10:27 am

Uh, I've found the thread with the rumour.

http://soljk2.forumotion.com/t4868-tim-has-multiclanz

I'm afraid his reaction says it all.
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Wed 31 Jul 2013, 11:59 am

Gosh. I've read every single post of every single quoted topic and even more. (There is a connection why Iggy posts this response, while I'm meditating about what to post...)

I've got the feeling that this topic is kind of important... But I also could be mistaken, and it could only be Iggy disliking Timmy...
Assuming it is, we should ask ourselves: Is Timmy SoL material?
When I first heard that Timmy might return, I wouldn't have had any doubts to answer: YES OF COURSE. But Igrom showed me many happenings of the past and corresponding events and words of the present, that cause some concerns.

Timmy lied several times during his come and go here in SoL... What was it's purpose? It tends to confuse me, because I'm sure, that if he didn't lie, there wouln't have been problems at all! I guess his lying is a hyper-compensation of our possible reactions.
But I see a difference in those useless lies surrounding his come and go, and the lie towards Igrom after that NF. In the latter he tried to hide his abuse, which came by rage. His apology was rather an excuse, and I can't really appreciate it. But I tend (or hope) to consider it as a one-time event... If it happens again, I would be really pissed.
But the other lies are kind of weird. The lying made the happenings worse, than they were. Leaving a clan for good and going to another one is no big deal. Look at Zelah and Vader...

I'm just too puzzled to draw any real conclusion from it. I'm kind of torn between Tim's dedication towards SoL and his enthusiasm. But there is also this affinity to lying and strange behaviour. Vader was playing back some weeks ago and told me that AoF left JK2. So I asked him, why he wouldn't come back. He asked if it was possible and appeared ashamed to me. I kind of persuaded him to make an app. Later that day he found an old exec for his tag and put it on. Eventually Timmy came on. He said something like "O.o brb, posting my app"... And disconnected again.
But then there is always this mix between excuses and sweet words. Tim's actions seem so two-sided to me. Also that Tim says he has no problems with starting as a recruit and if people have a grudge. But then there is this overly-friendly approach to Igrom. Looks like another hyper-compensation to me.
I've got the feeling, that we've never seen Timmy's real face. Though he is saying to play with open cards, it can't be true. He is too much saying what we want to hear and trying to avoid the uncomfortable topics or putting them into a positive light... I don't know if Tim is aware of this contradictionary behaviour.

On the other hand it seems obvious to me, that Tim can be a very active member both on Forum and Server. That he is taking part in discussions and can contribute in many ways and that he is willing to do so. I would really love to see Tim back in SoL... But I really would like to see his real face first. Not him trying to show us the face we may like to see.

But like I said at the beginning: Maybe all this discussion is useless, since Timmy could still be a great member. Giving all he has to give, either way. We only have to judge if his strange behavious is reason enough for us to reject him... Following Igrom's argumentation Timmy indeed is a person, that primaryly has his own stuff in mind and pays less attention to higher goods like loyalty or honesty. But that's not necessarily right...

I would not want to take a decision here on my own... I'd like to hear many opions on this matter.

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Igrom



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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Wed 31 Jul 2013, 12:55 pm

I want to say that I created this topic to hear the reasoning of those who voted in Tim's favour. What do you notice that I don't ? What am I missing ?
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Lucifer
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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Wed 31 Jul 2013, 1:02 pm

i gave my reasons, igrom has his opinion and i have mine, let the members decide..
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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Wed 31 Jul 2013, 1:30 pm

Well, your arguments aren't that positive for Tim neither. You compare him to Jamey and and Devy. Of course they were worse... and couldn't stay in SoL. A bad bunch of people to be compared with.
Another point is: Of course we give second chances... But Tim already had more than one.
And is SoL really the place to gather people for their activity?

Don't get me wrong Lucy. I was so amazingly happy, when my good old friend returned. But if those are the reasons for accepting someone, then it's pointless. Do you think Tim has the traits to be in SoL? Do you think he changed?

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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Wed 31 Jul 2013, 3:25 pm

I really didn't compare him, i basically meant the people we recruited in the past had a worse history than tim, like Jamey and Devy, it was hard to get them far into our clan because of their issues but we let them in, but gave Jamey a couple of shots... Im only fighting igrom antiapproval because of that, at least tim went far into our clan and ranked up alot unlike them..
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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Wed 31 Jul 2013, 10:07 pm

Eh... I guess "people, we recruited [...] had a worse history than tim" is a prime exampel for a comparison. You use a comparative (worse) and the comparison-particle "than". It IS a comparison.
I also see "at least tim went far into our clan and ranked up alot unlike them" which is not a prime example, but it is also a comparison. You could also say "Tim got further (comparative) than (particle) them."

I only stress this, because you're stressing you're not comparing, though I was asking some serious questions:
Do you think Tim has the traits to be in SoL? Do you think he changed?

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Battledroidlover
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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Wed 31 Jul 2013, 10:21 pm

Although generally the saying is quality not quantity we really need all the members we can get.... so even if he might not be right up to SoL material I think we still need him....
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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Thu 01 Aug 2013, 6:20 am

I feel the same way as Xaso feels...I just wake up from bed and read all of this post and the posts of tim that igrom posted, so maybe I am not lucid at the moment to write but my opinion is that we should talk to Tim. It´s obvious that most the clan (that includes me) like and see tim as a great member of SoL, but seing this, makes you think about the past of Tim, how was his actions, his way of thinking, and how we gave him a second chance as Xaso said. I really feel confused and weird about this and I don´t know if I am thinking straight but as I said we should talk to him. I mean, maybe we don´t understand Tim that much, maybe we didn´t discuss with him these actions he did before in a good way (without fighting, arguing with rage, as it appeared like that in Tim´s post). Faling to understand and faling to listen are rather diferent things, and so maybe if we talk to him about this in a good way, we could understand him better (and his actions) and then we can make our decision. I think that´s my opinion...

Xaso wrote:
I would not want to take a decision here on my own... I'd like to hear many opions on this matter.

Also as Xaso, I would want to see everybody´s opinion about this...

EDIT: I would want to add that all of igrom´s posts are from a long time ago. The first time that Tim left SoL was two years ago, and the second time was one year ago. It could be possible that in all this time, he became a diferent person in better way too. Just think about it...

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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Fri 02 Aug 2013, 1:13 pm

Then it's simple, we give Tim the same runaround that new members would get. We give him recruit if his poll passes, and we evaluate for ourselves. It's the only fair thing to do when there's only one or two nays.

Right now, I'm indifferent after reading what I have read, but I need to see how he IS and not how he WAS before I make my final decision (which really won't matter since I can't vote on the poll anyway).
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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Fri 02 Aug 2013, 3:53 pm

You'd think I have alot to say but I don't. Even though me and Tim were in AoF I don't know if he's changed since I've been around him. That may sound weird but its the truth, I don't know if he's changed the way you guys want. I've gotten used to the current Tim. Thats all i can really think of, great help I was lol.

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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Fri 02 Aug 2013, 4:33 pm

Yep Iggy, that is all true, except the part of the admin explosion, that was me logging out so we could have a fair and civil fight. You have a very honorable sense when it comes to nf and I admire that.


Luci I really thought you hated me, I'm really happy to see that you're standing up for me Smile



Yeah, as I explained to Igrom in my series of PM's, my cards are open. I've done bad things. None of you deserved a lie or to hear a fake ridiculous story of why I had to go. That was wrong, and by any standards, unforgivable. I could say sorry all I want, but its not going to fix anything. But, if you'll let me, I will serve SoL and prove to you all that I am in fact, a different person now, but also older, wiser, and more mature.

Am I SoL material? This is for you to decide, individually. I'm just going to be me, and you'll see the real me only.

Xasomur, my "overly-friendly" approach to Igrom, is my attempt to patch things up with him and hopefully at least make some of the negative comments disappear, because it shames me. I can see now that I have clearly failed.

Xaso wrote:
I've got the feeling, that we've never seen Timmy's real face. Though he is saying to play with open cards, it can't be true. He is too much saying what we want to hear and trying to avoid the uncomfortable topics or putting them into a positive light... I don't know if Tim is aware of this contradictionary behaviour.

Ask away Xaso, ask me about all the uncomfortable topics, I will answer them all here, all to my best knowledge and truthfully. As to whether or not my cards are open, they are. I said this to Iggy, but I will repeat, If I wasn't committed I wouldn't be begging for a third time. For almost a year and a half, my departure has left me ashamed, and I wish to right the wrongs no matter what the cost.

Member or recruit doesn't matter to me, it doesn't matter what rank you have to be to make a positive effect on a clan. I'm here to be a positive effect. I'm here because I owe it to all of you.

Igrom, I reiterate, I know you don't like me. This much is painfully clear. But I am no jamey, and especially not a Devy. You have a right to call me dishonest, or to question my history, but you have no right to question who I personally am, question my values, or decide on your own that I am not fit to wear SoL tags. You have now made it my personal mission to prove you wrong, prove your doubts wrong, and change your entire outlook about me.

I have nothing more to say, please, take your time on the decision, there is no rush.


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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Sat 03 Aug 2013, 3:31 am

Now that Tim's given his response, can I ask everyone to state what they want to do with Tim ? There are still ambiguous replies.
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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Sat 03 Aug 2013, 3:53 am

What he said now is more than enough for me, I accepted him back as a member of SoL!

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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Sat 03 Aug 2013, 4:39 am

Give him a chance.

My opionen is to give him another chance, yeah ok he has done bad things in the past! Look people, it is not our right to hold grudges on people that have done bad things in the past.

He has now come back, wants to rejoin, why not give hime a chance?
Mayby he has changed.

I am the Avatar, it is my duty to reason this situation.

The greatest illusion of this world is the illusion of separation. Things you think are separate and different are actually one and the same.
We are all one people. But we live as if divided.

Cmon people, open your minds. Give him another chance, if he messes it up, then we can banish him, but do not let our hate controll us. Let us give this young member or shall i say ex member a chance.


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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Sat 03 Aug 2013, 4:53 am

The monks used to say that revenge is like a two-headed rat-viper. While you watch your enemy go down, you're being poisoned yourself.
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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Sat 03 Aug 2013, 6:04 am

Aang once again you spout some odd crap that does nothing to aid the situation.
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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Sat 03 Aug 2013, 6:15 am

Axel wrote:
Aang once again you spout some odd crap that does nothing to aid the situation.

No not realy, i guess what i write is to high for your vocabulary.
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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Sat 03 Aug 2013, 6:24 am

My vocabulary is large enough that I understand what you say, it is just that half of it has no relevance or isn't even true.
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PostSubject: Re: On Tim's reapproval   Sat 03 Aug 2013, 6:27 am

Axel wrote:
My vocabulary is large enough that I understand what you say, it is just that half of it has no relevance or isn't even true.

And why should it not be true?
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