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 Hypothetical Debate

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Light
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PostSubject: Hypothetical Debate   Tue 08 Oct 2013, 2:16 pm

Hey guys!! I want your opinion about something. I think you all (or most) have seen Star Wars Episode 3, right? Well remember the scene when Windu with other jedis decided to go after Darth Sidious? And Anakin appeared and help Sidious to defeat Windu and became his apprentice?
Well you see, Windu (and I think it was the decition of the council too) decided to go after Darth Sidious and kill him because of what he has done and because his evil. I am not justifying what Darth Sidious have dones is right (on the opposite, I think is terrible), but killing him is the right thing? I mean, that isn´t against of the jedi's way? Shouldn´t the council sent him to a trial and, if the judge says he is guilty (which I think it would be the most certain thing), then to prison (even if "he is too dangerous to be alive")?
So I want to see your opinion about it, maybe it´s a little silly and is so sudden and without explanation Razz
I personally think that killing him isn´t the jedi way and won´t be appropiate. Everyone has the right to have a trial, even the bad guys like him. And everyone deserves a second chance. At least that is what I think, maybe not many people will think like me but I want to see your point of view Very Happy


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ExiDux
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Tue 08 Oct 2013, 2:28 pm

windu attempting to kil sidious like that seems to be an act of extreme agression, and a dark-side action.
just a big murder drive popping up, which also makes me wonder how windu can be a light side jedi.

as that same behaviour is the reason why they feared anakin becoming dark side.

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Tue 08 Oct 2013, 2:30 pm

My master.. can go die in a hole.. Very Happy
xD

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Tue 08 Oct 2013, 2:41 pm

BUT HE IS TOO DANGEROUS TO BE ALIVE! No but for real he is. If he was sent to a trial and prison he could easily escape those. Especially the prison. He is a potent force user and is able to seamlessly switch between forms of lightsaber combat. (As demonstrated against Fisto, Koth, etc). And since he wasn't killed, far more bad things happened (More Wookie slavery, Great Jedi Purge, Galactic Empire, etc). While killing Palpatine would have done something to Windu, it would not bring him to the Dark Side completely - but closer to it.
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superyaku
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Tue 08 Oct 2013, 3:04 pm

i think that by killing palpatine mace would saved lots of lives including anakin's and since plapanite had the total control of the senate and the courts, prision wasn't a good election, also palpatine wasn't totally disarmed beacuse of the lightning judgement, he also was the mastermind behind the clone wars that caused suffering and death all over the galaxy so from my perception mace should killed palpatine and beacuse of the jedi principles he should also forgive his jedi council spot.
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Leonardo
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Tue 08 Oct 2013, 5:37 pm

Killing Palpatine is just such a Samuel L Jackson thing to do though.

One does not make a movie with Samuel L Jackson and then have him not get aggressive. (#1 reason why Episode 1 was a fail, boom see? Perfect example.)
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ExiDux
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Tue 08 Oct 2013, 6:27 pm

but i still find it an odd ordeal, as a jedi is not supposed to be allowed to even do what he was doing there.


Tim Skywalker wrote:
Killing Palpatine is just such a Samuel L Jackson thing to do though.
EPIC STATEMENT ! cheers

side joke :
sideous : powaaah unlimited powaaaaaa
windu : english m*********** do you speak it !

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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Tue 08 Oct 2013, 8:25 pm

Killing isn't against the Jedi way, even if they claim it is sometimes. There are plenty of times when a Jedi is so much more powerful than his or her opponent, that the Jedi could simply incapacitate the enemy rather than maiming or killing the enemy. But, as we have seen many times (although less in more recent media), Jedi often engage in "mass amputation for the greater good" or "noble killing rampages." They probably didn't have to.

It seems the only variables that matter to Jedi are
a) is the opponent currently armed? or
b) has it been clear to an observer for more than 1 second that I have won this fight?

If an enemy is armed, Jedi seem to have no problem maiming or killing the enemy, even if one of their actions has already assured their victory, as long as they land the maiming or killing blow within about 1 second of the previous action that assured their victory. For example, if a Jedi knocks a bad guy on the head enough to disorient him and break his defense, a Jedi has no problem then cutting his hand off or impaling him. However, if the Jedi knocks him on the head enough to disorient him and the bad guy falls down, making it too difficult for the Jedi to cut his hand off or impale him quickly, the Jedi seems to realize, "Oh, I can actually just disarm this guy or knock him on the head again to completely incapacitate him. I guess I'll do that instead of killing the poor bastard."

TL;DR - Jedi don't have a very strong moral compass when it comes to killing. They basically kill if the enemy is dangerous or disposable, and they don't kill when the enemy is no threat or they want to impress the Jedi they have a crush on.
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Danek
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Tue 08 Oct 2013, 10:19 pm

HE'S AN OLD BASTARD WHO HAD SOME 'FUN' WITH WINDU'S DAUGHTER
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Battledroidlover
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Tue 08 Oct 2013, 10:33 pm

Palpatine had control of the corrupt courts, so somehow he would of weasled out of it Razz
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KingYodah
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Wed 09 Oct 2013, 12:29 am

Battledroidlover wrote:
Palpatine had control of the corrupt courts, so somehow he would of weasled out of it Razz
-'Senate will decide'
-'I AM the senate!'
-'Not yet'

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Wed 09 Oct 2013, 1:45 am

Since the "should have Osama Bin Laden have assassinated like that?" debate, in which I was called a Nazi for stating the opinion, that it was not right to assassinate him, nor to rejoice for his death (though I can understand one has less grief for his death), I think everyone knows my standpoint.

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Vader
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Wed 09 Oct 2013, 1:55 am

I just realized something.. if palpatine dies.. vader dies.. (not existing ofc) DD:
Well I've officially gone neutral and do nothing about it. xD

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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Wed 09 Oct 2013, 2:04 am

no, vader would not die. in fact, he wouldn't have been sent to mustafar and be crippled like that.Probably you would have fallen tot he dark side anyway. But with your full body. Maybe you'd had been an even more powerful jedi/sith... Surprised

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Wed 09 Oct 2013, 2:29 am

ITS DANGEROUS TO LET VADER ALIVE xD
Wink 

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Wed 09 Oct 2013, 3:18 am

@Xaso I just read through that topic and I'm honestly disgusted by how aggressive some of the people were o_o
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Wed 09 Oct 2013, 5:41 am

I want to thanks all for your opinions so far!! And there were some opinions that were really interesting to me. I still think the same way about the resolution of the scene, but I wanted to know about your feelings, thx! Very Happy

Xasomur wrote:
Since the "should have Osama Bin Laden have assassinated like that?" debate, in which I was called a Nazi for stating the opinion, that it was not right to assassinate him, nor to rejoice for his death (though I can understand one has less grief for his death), I think everyone knows my standpoint.
Battledroidlover wrote:
@Xaso I just read through that topic and I'm honestly disgusted by how aggressive some of the people were o_o
Going a little off topic, I want to take the opportunity to apologize for the form which I express about my opinion about Osama Bin Laden. I still think what I have said in the past, but maybe I could have spoken in a better way when it comes to show my point of view about that situation. And I want to add that I feel the same way as what BDL has said about how they treated xaso in the past. Respect is one of the most important rules of this clan that we built together, as nick said on the other topic.

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Wed 09 Oct 2013, 8:36 am

Personally, I think the best outcome would have been for him to be killed. The only reason I would give validity to alternatives is simply because Anakin's intervention makes that outcome nearly impossible. But I think that's a pretty good indicator of just how impossible it would be to keep him alive without the Galaxy plunging into darkness, too.
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Igrom



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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Wed 09 Oct 2013, 8:51 am

a) the Jedi and the Sith are kind of polar opposites, with a long history of clashing. One order wishes for peace and civillization, the ther for personal power. And so, they strive to annihilate (or at least capture and confine, in the Jedi's case) each other due to conflicting philosophies.

b) the galaxy was at war, with the Chancellor orchestrating it. He's a fairly one-dimensional, purely evil character; directly responsible for war atrocities. If the war leader dies, the war is bound to end.

c) the Jedi are people; gifted with supernatural powers, but still people. They might aim for perfect peace; however, theoretically only God can be perfectly saint. Self-defense is cool and all, but can you really apply that when confronting a Sith Lord ?

They're like legal galaxy police. Do you think that the police wouldn't shoot a particularly dangerous individual ?
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Phoenix
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Wed 09 Oct 2013, 9:14 am

Thats the wierd thing, we know that Sith and Jedi are enemies, and that their ideology, goals and morals are inverse to each other, but we actually don't get a feel for what Sith rule was actually like. We're told to hate the Sith, and as Star Wars and Jedi fans we readily accept that without question. Its also not questionable that the Jedi's outlook is benevolent, however we really don't even get a chance to like the Sith. They did horrible things, but then, so do governments of today, often to the benefit of their own people. We know the rebels hate the empire, but of course they should, they're rebels, and the Jedi, whether you like it or not, enjoy rule.

There no way you can spin it that makes the Jedi look totally selfless. Yes they use their power for good, however, they still enjoy that power, and enjoy using it, and if anything comes into conflict with that power, even if they claim it is for the greater good, the Jedi would stop them in order to remain in control. There seems to a naivety about the Jedi that we're suppost to accept, i actually think that despite their great ideals, their systems and actions are actually quite flawed.

Who knows what Sith rule would bring. We never get a taste for what it was actually like to live on Corusant, pro, or Alderraan under Sith charge, we're told that everbody hates them, but we see very little example of bad treatment to people who are outside the storyarc. Lest not forget, that all of the people persecuted by the empire, are usually their because of their actions (Although destroying Alderraan was needless...). Has it ever occured to anybody that pahaps the Sith economic thrived under the Sith, and pahaps average Joe people, not inside the main story, actually had a high quality of life? Just a thought....

As for Palpatine, Vader and Windu its difficult to say. I genuinely beleive that Palpatine loved Anakin like a father, often fathers make decisions in their own interests as well as others. Whether he intended vader to maimed by Obi-wan or not is unclear, but it certainly only strengthened Anakins hatred. Its also unclear whether Palpatine intented Padme to die nor not, he lies to Anakin about her death, but pahaps that was just taking advantage or an unfortunate situation, and twisting it to get more resolve out of Vader. Don't forget, Anakin commits all those hideous crimes before Padme's death, thus it seems feasable that she could technically become part of the empire. Despite her strong passion for democracy, she is blinded by her love for Anakin. In fact, if it wasn't for Obi-wans prior interference, I believe she could have been persuaded to join the Dark side. Then again, actually she died of a broken heart rather than injury, so maybe no matter what Obi-wan did, it may have turned out the same.

As for Mace and Palpatine, its rumored that Palpatine put up a very weak fight against Mace on purpose, because he wanted to look vunerable for when Anakin arrived, Anakins turn to the dark side it certainly would have had difficulty happening any other way. I have to say, the way the three Jedi dropped like flies against Palpatine is almost laughable, even Kit Fisto was dead in a heartbeat, its hard to imagine that he couldn't have finished Mace in a second if he wanted to. Anakins involvement was paramount in settling that fight, I wouldn't be surpised if Palpatine had planned it all along. I struggle to wonder where the storyline would have gone if Mace hadn't dies and had killed Palpatine.
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Wed 09 Oct 2013, 9:28 am

off topic too:
@BDL and Light
Thank you for your words. But I made a mistake in naming it. And I made the mistake to skim through that topics. One the one hand I am kind of surprised how calm I kept and hpw much efforts I gave in about being neutral. But then I see those words of hate and stupidity, for which I never got any apology. Now it takes me months again to get over my negative feelings towards certain ppl. I should just have read BDLs reply and be happy about it. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Wed 09 Oct 2013, 9:30 am

@Phoe: an average Joe did not have that "high quality of life"; well, it depends on who you call an average Joe. Abundant stormtroopers, army relying in many places on fear (even the Imperial Palace was said to have been constructed to instigate something akin to fear [some Stackpole X-Wing book, or 'I, Jedi']) and persecution of non-humans.

The Senate was corrupted prior to the Empire and stuff, and so the coming of the Empire isn't solely a negative thing. However, while a reform was propably needed, dictatorship wasn't the best, or remotely good thing to happen.
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Wed 09 Oct 2013, 10:04 am

I believe that all politics are corrupt, no matter what intention, and no matter what regime is controlling the broad scope of things, Republic or Empire, they are both corrupt.

Think back to episode 1, where everyone was tricked into naming Palpatine the new supreme chancellor. Yes, that's what set off this whole master plan to form an empire, but even without that, Valorum was weak and the senate corrupt. The senate was forced to cooperate during the clone wars for the sole fact that it was a war, they had to unite in order to survive.

In fact I argue that the Empire was actually less corrupt than the Old Republic. If you remember in Episode 4, the Emperor dissolved the Senate, making him the sole man to make decisions. The senate as I've noticed in Star Wars, is ultimately motivated by money and altogether corrupt, so I find this a good thing that it was dissolved.

Even though Palpatine's plan was to rule the galaxy as Sith, I think the steps to forming an empire was wise, due to the infinite corruptness of the Republic. There's a saying that goes "You cannot have a democracy, without greed."
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Wed 09 Oct 2013, 10:18 am

Igrom wrote:
@Phoe: an average Joe did not have that "high quality of life"; well, it depends on who you call an average Joe. Abundant stormtroopers, army relying in many places on fear (even the Imperial Palace was said to have been constructed to instigate something akin to fear [some Stackpole X-Wing book, or 'I, Jedi']) and persecution of non-humans.

The Senate was corrupted prior to the Empire and stuff, and so the coming of the Empire isn't solely a negative thing. However, while a reform was propably needed, dictatorship wasn't the best, or remotely good thing to happen.
That's funny though isn't it. We look at the Jedi order like Gods, but i'm sure many average and day to day people feared and resented the Jedi, in the same way that many people today dislike and distrust the Police Force. That's effective what the Jedi are, just supposedly a little more benevolent and free thinking, althought that in itself can be a negative. People can say what they like about the Jedi, yes they were a force for good, however they also had some self-interest, and benefitted greatly, and also wielded alot of power by the positions they held in the Republic. On the whole, I don't look at their involvement as perfect.

@Tim I agree with you on many counts there, and thats a very popular opinion, always has been. Power corrupts, theres no arguements against it, its evident in history, religion, governments, employment and all other walks of life. To quote one of my hero's Billy Connolly, "Anybody who has the desire to become a politician should immediately be exempted from ever becoming one."
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Leonardo
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical Debate   Wed 09 Oct 2013, 12:35 pm

I think at first, the jedi did not seek power or even need it. I think in time, they realized that it was useful and nice to have, being the defenders of the republic and all. Being a jedi has notoriety associated with it, but without a proper backing (like how the republic backed the jedi) they cannot assert authority. Without the republic, jedi possibly could be little more than a common mercenary. The republic and the jedi eventually became dependent on one another.
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