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 The "Name" - A Contract?

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Should we demand a contract from Outcast's ATS for changing our name?
Yes
38%
 38% [ 5 ]
No
62%
 62% [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 13
 

AuthorMessage
NickdeClaw
Legend
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Posts : 3075

PostSubject: The "Name" - A Contract?   Tue 16 Feb 2010, 6:34 pm

The poll of whether or not to change our name seems to be a solid "Yes." The next issue is whether or not we should take this opportunity to request that Outcast's ATS treat us with respect if we change our name.

Kernow and Xasomur have laid out a number of requests that we would make of Outcast's ATS:
Xasomur wrote:
We here, as the winners, have to think about the demands we take on them.
1. he has to stop to call us any names (stealers/fakers whatever), other then the new one we will think of
2. he has to stop to ignore our existance
3. he has to inform all his new applicants about the recent history and the splitting
4. he has to inform his new applicants about the existance of our site and server
5. he has to infrom the old and casual members about our new site and server
Kernow and Xasomur suggest that we demand conditions like these in exchange for changing our name. You can read more about their argument in the 'The "Name"' thread and they will probably also present their argument here.

My personal opinion is that making demands like this is somewhat dirty, as though we're ransoming the ATS name to Outcast's clan. I think making demands in this way is not congruent with our clan's values; it is not kind, it seems like blackmail. I know that Outcast is being disrespectful to us, but that doesn't mean we have to act like him in return. I don't think we need a good word from Outcast to succeed, and I feel that in the long run it speaks more highly of our clan if we succeed under our own power. If we are the good people we say we are, we shouldn't need Outcast's word to prove it. My vote is No.

Please express your thoughts, and try to vote only when you feel informed about the various arguments.

7 day poll.
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mereel
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Tue 16 Feb 2010, 7:25 pm

No. As you said, it seems really dirty and cheap. And we all know what happens when we fall to their level of immaturity and rashness. I know....


I think we should just let things go and move on. It is a game for god's sake. Why are we making a big deal out of a name? I have never seen such a problem over a name in all my times with clans.
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Kernow Pilgrim
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Tue 16 Feb 2010, 10:19 pm

Asking (demanding?) for a term of contract is no immature move that presents us as immature and devious. To those that do not understand our point of view it will - but from what I gather, the people who ran the name topic insisted that this was all about US, and nothing about Outcast and his recruits. Thus I conclude why do we shy away from an act of justice and equality when we care not of what they will do or say? And we say they are the hypocrites?

In two years if I still play this game - and my reputation and rememberance (and all of ours) is "Kernow the faker", I will lose all manner of self-control and I will raise his server to the earth. What I'm saying is if peace and reputation is what you seek from denying our moral earnings, then it will come about nevertheless. I'm sure you've all read my calculations on what Outcasts recruits will do if subject to no ideology but his, the future lies their mindset.

Ask yourself the question not what have we got to gain. But what have we got to lose?

What have got to lose from making a contract with Outcast? Pride? Respect? Reputation? You obviously think all ATS is and ever will be is Outcast, and you don't care about this right? So make a contract, he wants the name all for himself and we want some form of agreement that our efforts and existance will not be put under a false propaganda to the new generation of JK2. Why would you say no? he will either show his inconsolability to others once again OR we will be sucessful and gain what we always wanted. A win/win situation.

The main one - which we all would approve of is - For their forum and server to make it quite plain and declared that 'ATS is a group of friends under the pernament rule of its founders forever. - They by default contain more knoweldge and experiance and regardless of their activity and/or morals they will always lead ATS'. This is the most subtle and potentially accepting message I could imagine them taking - it basically suggests a dictatorship.

I reluntantly agree with you - but like i said the RIGHT terms give us better chance. This does in essence come down to our self-sacrifice of pride. It is hypicritical to say that we don't care what THEY and their recruits think but we won't make the necessary moves it takes to POTENTIALLY acheive a peace if it means that we will PROBABLY be insulted for it. But we don't care right?


I am not Outcast - as such I am willing to sacrifice a bit of my pride in potential exhange for peace, satisfaction and understanding in some form.
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Ajunta Pall
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 12:49 am

I don't agree neither for contract. We just don't need it, do we ? It would mean that they are better than us and that without their respect we are a bit annoyed ...
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 12:50 am

we dont get down on outcast level by negotiating with him. ignoring him and denying his existance would be his level.

treating him with respect and at the same eye height.
it is the complete opposite of what u say: it isnt cheap, as it isnt creating another clan-bubble around ourselves like what outcast does, its a opening, political correct and respectful acion.
and this is going to be a contract. we arent only taking demands like the winners of a war do, we are negotiating. we will compare the points we have and the demands each of us will take. its furthermore a action of equality as u see.

and i agree with kernow. if we dont do such, we lie to ourselves. We cant ignore them, as long as we are not completely willing to do it. (and the fact that we DO a namechange is a result of outcasts existance... and that we DONT ignore it)

and as i explained in the other topic: there is a lot of confusion about ats out there. We have to define what we are, and what we not are, and where we differ from outcasts clan. it is more then only another sogn for US showing what we are, it is a sign to outcasts clan what we are, and it is a sign to the whole community. as we arent only some rebels making their own little thing, because outcast suppresses us. we are a great and powerful clan and the heritage of what ats should be. we arent a new clan, founded in late 2009. we are a clan with roos in 2006.

and i see another important point in it, which i want to emphazise, because it was part of another points i listed: outcast is part of our history. he made us to what we are. we learned from his mistakes. we grew in his organisation. we are in debts to our history, paying it the attention it deserves.

demanding a contract was not the lat update we made on this. first i said taking demands... but i see that his is a disrespectful way to go.
i wanted negotiations... not forcing an unfair treaty ...

it is not what i meant, the polls questionsounds degrading to the process... it doesnt even mean the process i meant...

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sebbat
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Posts : 6165

PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 1:08 am

I dont like this idea..

If we change the name.. we wont be ATS.. so the recruits will still with them, and do you think that outcast will respect that contract? L.O.L

Some recruits and new members from here are good people, but there are others who are like outcast (germo) who started to call me rat yesterday, and he started to say, i want to kill the rat, i want to hunt the rat, for me.. these things about rats,abuse and "fake ats" are installed in some new members, so i think that this idea is wrong.
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 1:10 am

lol whats wrong with the contract then... i dont see the relation...
a contract will end these insults of rats and fakers... they only shall treat us like a clan we are... isnt it what u want?
so where is the wrong???

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Skambak
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 2:36 am

No. I agree with nick and mereel. In addition, Outcast doesn't ignore us... always i go into his server (ONLY to play with Herny-JK) he starts to telling me things bout us. As the demand says : "fakers, stealers, etc". I ignore him, but he continue talking and talking non-sense things... He told me not to use my tag. He doesn't believe we are "the other side" (as I told him)... He says it's not about sides, we are nothing, there is only 1 ATS. So, my point is, Outcast DOESN'T ignore us. But WE must ignore his attitude. I don't care about his recruits... I will say Herny to tell them the truth, he is a good guy and will listen me, and will do everything I tell to him. And if he ignore us, why does he tell shit about us to his recruits... It has no sense. He's immature and highly dependent on the game. Let him stuck in his own shit. When time pass by he'll realize that we do not care about his insults..
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Grimmjow



Posts : 1450

PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 6:29 am

I voted no i don't see there's any reason for that contract. I don't think Outcast would make it either so it would just be a lot of unnecessary waste of time if u ask me Razz
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 6:52 am

omg... all what u slam and seb, and even others in other topics tell, could be finished by a contract...
why dont u give it a try?
u dont have to be the ones negotiating with him...

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mereel
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 8:20 am

Xasomur they voted... leave them alone. It is their opinion. Learn to respect that.
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Ali3N
Sith Lord
Sith Lord


Posts : 473

PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 8:49 am

Absulutley NOT!

~Ali3N
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BlueNinja
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight


Posts : 2697

PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 8:56 am

Lol... I talked about this a bit with Lusan and he thinks this is absolutely ridiculous. You can't talk to Outcast, you can't reason with him, you can't act democratic with him, and you can't discuss things about him. He just won't cooperate with anyone. And I agree with him, he is just a cretin who abuses his power to get things he wants without any regard of what others may think or of the consequences. Try you may, but you won't get any response but a ban hammer.
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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 10:29 am

Grimmjow wrote:
I voted no i don't see there's any reason for that contract. I don't think Outcast would make it either so it would just be a lot of unnecessary waste of time if u ask me Razz
BlueNinja wrote:
Lol... I talked about this a bit with Lusan and he thinks this is absolutely ridiculous. You can't talk to Outcast, you can't reason with him, you can't act democratic with him, and you can't discuss things about him. He just won't cooperate with anyone.
...
Try you may, but you won't get any response but a ban hammer.
I definitely agree, pursuing a contract will just be an unnecessary burden on us - both policy-wise and morally. I foresee only rejection if we pursue this contract. If we aren't rejected, I foresee being double-crossed in the future. If we aren't double-crossed in the future, I foresee the contract being used as evidence that we ourselves believe we held the name illegitimately.

Even in the highly unlikely event that all of this goes well, I find it completely unnecessary; we don't need a contract to succeed, nor to excel beyond Outcast's clan.

If we are rejected, yes it is nice to show that Outcast is indeed completely unwilling to negotiate peacefully. But then we will change our name anyway. The whole "contract" issue will then be viewed as "fakers trying to be opportunistic and exploit Outcast's clan."

The whole issue just sounds like us trying to be manipulative. I don't want that stain on an otherwise clean reformation of a good clan. Besides, as others have noted, Outcast won't accept it, and we don't need him to.

But the main point for me is this:
Kernow Pilgrim wrote:
Why would you say no? he will either show his inconsolability to others once again OR we will be sucessful and gain what we always wanted. A win/win situation.
This is not a "win/win" to me, it's an "unnecessary/less_desirable." If we want him to show his being inconsolable, we simply be the good people we say we are, and point to his continued lying and exiling of us as the evidence; we don't need a contract to show this. As for gaining "what we always wanted," I don't want this from Outcast. I am perfectly content to let people think for themselves, and to seek the truth on our open server or to see the truth when we play in their server. In fact, I would much prefer this. We hold more power when Outcast continues to make moral mistakes. If Outcast starts being truthful about us, that's one less talking point that WE have; one less reason for players to leave Outcast's clan. Which answers your question, Kernow:
Kernow Pilgrim wrote:
Ask yourself the question not what have we got to gain. But what have we got to lose?
Staying as true to our morals as possible will always give us the edge over Outcast's clan, because ultimately it is ruled by a corrupt leader. We exist due to our discontent with that corruption. Maximizing the emphasis of that difference will make us strongest.
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BlueNinja
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 12:50 pm

Okay, I see your point Nick, I'm fine with this then.
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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 1:17 pm

BlueNinja wrote:
Okay, I see your point Nick, I'm fine with this then.
lol what? I was still arguing NOT to have the contract. xD
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BlueNinja
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 1:41 pm

No I meant how maybe that it will make us look like the better person if we offer.
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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 2:19 pm

Huh? I was explaining why I think it will make us look underhanded if we ask for a contract when we're changing our name anyway. My vote is No. Razz
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sebbat
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 2:20 pm

So.. this is the end? we change our name?
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BlueNinja
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 2:26 pm

Well that's what the polls are telling us...
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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 2:27 pm

Yes, the vote is solidified for changing the name, now we're debating whether to also ask for a contract for Outcast to treat us nicely if we change our name. Mereel, Grimmjow, and I are voting No; Kernow and Xaso have voted yes, and it seems the other votes are somewhat up in the air. Not sure what Blue is thinking. xD
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sebbat
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 2:28 pm

I said no
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BlueNinja
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 2:28 pm

I think that I need to really get some sleep xD
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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 2:30 pm

Sebbat, Ali3n, and Ajunta seem pretty confident with a No, Blue are you awake enough to express your current position?
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BlueNinja
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name" - A Contract?   Wed 17 Feb 2010, 2:32 pm

Hmmm... I don't think its very important seeing as its not gonna do anything, so no xD
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