Subject: Thought of the day Sat 04 Jul 2015, 12:15 pm
First topic message reminder :
In the light of the recent events, I feel the urge to write this post. I am sorry, if it’s too long for you. When I re-discovered JK2 six years ago, many people – especially in ATS – treated me like a youngster. They said: “You’re just a new kid, what do you know?” But now they often treat me like … like the pope. They listen to what I say, they even expect me to say something about everything, and on top of that they take my word as sacrosanct – unless you’re not a part of the SoL-religion, then I am just an old scrub for you. But even the believers are not content with me. In the end it’s all the same: Many people don’t really cherish what I say or do. And I see the same fate for this post. But what the heck, why stop now after 6 years? Just let me be a little less politically correct, than I usually try to be.
I know that JK2 is just a game and that many people think they can act like real douchebags because of that. But in my opinion, you’re a douchebag, when you act like a douchebag, no matter if it’s in the real life or not. And lying, badmouthing, harassing and things like that make you a douchebag.
Now you can disagree with this, which is fine. Some people have to be wrong in order to prove the right people right. The problem is just this: SoL was set up with a definition similar to mine – hence I joined it (ATS) or helped to create it (SoL). The words were different, the rules were enforced differently, but the essence was the same: We have more fun, if we are not acting like douchebags and playing with people that are not acting like douchebags. This basic distinction divided SoL from clans that only focus on the skill, clans that honor people, who are able to “rape” other people “into submission”.
But SoL has some more characteristics to it. I won’t go through all of them but two. One thing is that SoL believes that cheating is unfair and killing the game – even cheating against cheaters is not alright. If I say “believe” it can be taken seriously, or let’s say: take is as a religion (since I am the pope anyway). Why do people join this weird clan that is against cheating, while seemingly 99% of the players do cheat? It would seem like religious zeal to me, to join this sect against cheating while all the others cheat. But then I can’t help but wonder about the changes of mind, when I see people use cheats inside the clan or leave it in order to cheat or leave it and cheat a few days later. If you deem it viable to use cheats, then you shouldn’t have joined in the first place.
Maybe some people are wondering about our behavior towards cheaters, even after they understood our thoughts about cheating. But let me make it clear: We hate cheating, but we don’t hate cheaters for the sake of them being cheaters. (We can hate cheaters for being douchebags, just like we can hate non-cheaters for being douchebags.) A cheater can be a nice person – but he can’t be in SoL. Another aim of SoL is it, to save the game. A war against cheaters wouldn’t serve that goal. So we tolerate a lot of cheating – even if we whine.
Another problem is the treating of cheaters within SoL, which might confuse people. First thing is: We can only take measures upon proven cheating. To prove cheating is like proving the existence of bigfoot. You know it’s there and you even got a shaky screenshot of it, but in the end no-one can ever be sure, if it wasn’t only wishful thinking after all. So let me skip that. I rather want to address the misunderstanding of our “tolerance” of cheaters in SoL. We “allow” people to use cheats, as long as they do it with another name on another server. But fact is, we don’t allow it. We just cannot track someone, who is undercover on another server. I cannot check the IP of Padawan on a random server, so I cannot tell that it’s a certain SoL member, who is cheating. That’s all of the “allowance”. The point still stands: When you want to cheat, why join SoL in the first place?
Now our seeming allowance has gone very far in a few cases. But that is, because we can still like people who cheat, and consider them friends. I know Grimmjow uses cheats under circumstances. But he is honest about it. I like honesty. Grimmjow is a good friend. I don’t want him to disappear. I should maybe excommunicate him, but I am apparently a bad pope. But why would I like someone who is pretending or blatantly lying? So even in doing wrong, Grimmjow is doing better than people that have come and passed over the time.
The other characteristic of SoL is the unique fact, that it is a democracy. And again I can’t help but wonder how people can misunderstand what a democracy is. Sure there are different democracies all over the world and all over history. But this one is a very direct one. It is a democracy, because you gain power by applying it. By posting and by convincing, you change things. You don’t even have to own administrative rights to have more power than all the administrators. One thoughtful post can convince all the others. If you found the right thing to do and are able to explain it, you have the power. So everyone has the power.
And still there are people who are bold enough to complain about democracy, while all the possibilities are open to them. It’s like feeling rejected from a party, although you have a million invitations in your inbox. This means, if you think this democracy failed, you failed, because you kept sitting at home, instead of joining the party. I concede, that some of the complainers did join the party and now they complain that it’s always the same people choosing the music and that they don’t want to dance to it. But it is the same problem, if you think about it. Because usually there is no music playing, because everyone is sitting there staying at the ground. After a while always the same people walk up to the sound system and put their “Get-Psyched-Mix” into the jukebox, even though these people wish, that someone else would add their musical taste for a change. So again it is yourself, who were unable to apply the freedom of democracy.
And I also think that it’s foolish to blame democracy, if you dislike certain members of the clan. Just imagine it wouldn’t be a democracy. Then you’d be completely dependent on the choices of your divine leader. It can go well for a while, but then he might let a friend join, who is a pure pain in the butt. So you have to face this problem in any kind of clan. And now imagine your leader becomes devious. You’re screwed then. This cannot happen in a democracy like this. Not only is every member-to-be examined by all the current members, a democracy can cope with conflicts between their members, at times the democracy can even benefit from it: diverging opinions raise the quality of the discussion. Only as soon as people forget the benefit of diverging opinions, they can also lose the quality of discussion. They will turn the discussion into mere hassle.
Having said this in defense of the clan, I want to express my confusion about the behavior of certain people upon leaving this clan. How is it possible, that one day you’re in this clan and you acting like being dedicated to it, you contribute and befriend the other members; and on the other day you are despising the same clan and badmouth members of that same clan? Were they pretending all the time? Or did their personality change from one day to another? Maybe they haven’t been SoL material in the first place. Maybe I am wrong with feeling a loss and betrayal. Maybe I should just let myself be amused by the hypocrisy of blaming for hypocrisy.
SoL has existed for nearly 6 years by now – meanwhile other clans came and went, even “the game is dying”. The clan isn’t making all the things wrong. It cannot be, given the length of history. I am tired of telling the people who are SoL members by heart to keep their heads up. For once I want to tell the opposition: I don't only like turtles, I really love you, you kings of Burger King, give me a nice hug and fly some kite. I’m done preaching my weekend-sermon.
Subject: Re: Thought of the day Wed 08 Jul 2015, 11:30 pm
Thank you BDL, that is exactly what I mean.
Xemnas: According to Bacara he changed his name because he was tired of it, not because he wanted to hide from you.
If I see any of you critizizing my members for choosing JiP, I will protect them and take nessecary measures to try to prevent it the next time. Don't blow this up more than it needs, I already have the russians to deal with.
Subject: Re: Thought of the day Wed 08 Jul 2015, 11:59 pm
devY The Invincible wrote:
Xemnas: According to Bacara he changed his name because he was tired of it, not because he wanted to hide from you.
Never blamed him for that^^
The point is that if someone leaves because of problems in this clan and does not point them out things wont go out in a good way. True. They might have their reasons and its their choice to leave the clan. But doing it like that is just unfair and unnescecary.
Subject: Re: Thought of the day Thu 09 Jul 2015, 12:45 am
Ye sorry for the "stealing" word but you have to understand that when someone slams door there is obviously a problem and silent treatment wont help to solve it and maybe the reasons for slamming door dont need to be fully public but some input also from your side would be appreciated. Also I was refering to that you were repeatedly asking some members. If it really wasnt you or not repeatedly, sorry for that too. But please understand that we want to keep our community together too. Not just you
___________________ )>SoL<(~KingYodah ~SoL DC Admin ~SoL FA Admin
Subject: Re: Thought of the day Thu 09 Jul 2015, 3:04 am
Devy has obviously not read the post. But he shouldn't even bother trying it. His half brain cell will certainly be overstrained from ... thinking basically. I wasn't addressing this scum in the first place, since I didn't want to waste my time and goodwill yet again on his ignorance and ridiculous stupidity.
Since this is a democracy, several opinions can live alongside each other without being fatal for the clan. That is why certain people of the clan can post opinions differing from the one I stated in my original post above.
My essential point was, that you shouldn't change communities like you change your t-shirts. You don't choose them like in an ice-cream parlor, when you only decide after your sponaneous preference. The communities in this game are built on certain views on the game, certain ideals and convictions. I can perfectly understand Devy, since he has been an unscrupulous and malicious bugger, eversince we first met. But I can't understand the people who were aspiring cyans of this clan to leave it from one day to another and betray those ideals they once held up high.
A sociopath like Devy knows no ideals, sure. But as a member of SoL you should know some. And shame on those who desert them.
Subject: Re: Thought of the day Thu 09 Jul 2015, 3:22 am
So basically this post is a complaint that I use a ks against other ksers? Sorry that's none of anyone's business but mine. SoL lets people use KS's all the time on other servers. And the "we dont know they use it" crap is just that... crap. Everyone knows who KS's on other servers so dont claim ignorance on your own members while condemning your former members. If I want to even the fight against the people I'm playing against, who is anyone to judge that. If everyone used a KS or didn't, than it wouldn't be "cheating" so if I use a KS against the people who KS, and don't use it against the people who don't, well than that's not cheating. If two people who fight "cheat" as you say, well then its not cheating. It simply means the rules have changed and both players adapted to it. I am against cheating in the fact of one player having an advantage over the other. I am not against using "cheats" to even a fight. If you were in a sword duel in real life, and your opponent brought a gun, are you really not going to use the gun sitting next to you because it is a sword fight? If you enjoy fighting at a disadvantage to everyone, than fine, enjoy that.
So far all this topic has "achieved" is bashing Devy, Danek, and I. If that was your goal, congrats you achieved it and drove a wedge between a lot of people. Not really sure what other point this topic could have. You clearly wanted us to see it since you posted it in the clan section so don't even try to say you weren't trying to insult us.
Subject: Re: Thought of the day Thu 09 Jul 2015, 3:35 am
Justifying using ks with using it "only" against other "cheaters" isnt the way either and it is sad (and not just in this case) too. I guess I was way too idealistic about the "clean" and the "dirty" ... my mistakes That is how it always begins.. *if he uses it then why i shouldnt*. I very well remember how you were proud of being clean..
___________________ )>SoL<(~KingYodah ~SoL DC Admin ~SoL FA Admin
Subject: Re: Thought of the day Thu 09 Jul 2015, 3:36 am
read my initial post. I was insulting you. I was explaining my thoughts, why I think what some people, like you, did was/is wrong. It obviously didn't get to you. So yea, I was insulting you and I am not taking it back. You brought the wedge between the people, the others just tried to be nicer than I was. Since I am really hurt. I can understand if you leave because of disliking Yodah and Angel. But I can't understand your behaviour then. If you once were SoL, your thoughts about cheating should've been different. It is one problem to solve, how to deal cheaters, even after you tracked them. I explained the "ignorance" which is no ignorance, in the initial post. But it is another issue, if you start cheating yourself from one day to another. If you're unable to extinguish murder from the world, you go around shooting ppl down? Sure, complain about the loopholes of law then... seems legit.
Subject: Re: Thought of the day Thu 09 Jul 2015, 3:52 am
Explain how I drove a wedge between anyone? I left on good terms with everyone. You're the one who decided to make a topic and bash two people who gave a ton of time and effort to this clan and sparked everyone lashing out. If your loyalty extends only to people who follow the exact same principles as you, thats fine. Sad to destroy friendships over something that doesn't affect you at all. Everyone who is upset by me using a KS is upset that I use a KS against other players, but have promised not to use it against them. So it doesn't affect any of you at all, yet you are offended by it? Illogical.
My thoughts on cheating remain the same as they always have. I don't like the idea of one player having an advantage over the other, which is why I'm not going to ks against SoL or other people I know don't ks. The difference now is that the clan I went to allows a KS and SoL didn't. I didn't leave SoL so that I could KS. Believe it or not, I didn't even think about it until a few days later when I realized I could use it if I wanted. You are the one who is letting this drive a wedge between friends, and why? because i left the clan. I dont see a KS driving a wedge between you and grimm, hektor, or rachel, two of whom were cyan applicants (i dont know if grimm ever was). Lets not pretend this is some idealistic stance of the "fallen" Zelah turning his back on all of SoL by cheating and scrapping their ideals. This is the rest of you being hurt we left the clan and lashing out in the only way you can.
Subject: Re: Thought of the day Thu 09 Jul 2015, 4:27 am
It is no news to anyone that Xasomur gets very childish when he gets angry. I must admit though, claiming that I'm stupid makes no sense. I "stole" your members so you call me unintelligent? Please, grow up..
I'm not intrested in a contest of flaming, neither am I intrested in killing off your clan by taking your members. Those who wants to join JiP, joins JiP. Those who wants to stay in SoL, stays in SoL. Just calm down lol, jeez.
Subject: Re: Thought of the day Thu 09 Jul 2015, 5:37 am
I never said you stole, Devy. I forgive you your confusion to divide thoughts and words of different people. That happens even to people, who aren't as stupid as you.
@ Zelah Three points I want to name, that poisoned the relationships between you and others here. First of all you left more than once and returned more than once. You even left after reaching the cyan flame. You came back with the intention to stay and the members were always accepting you back for good. You weren't expected to act like everything was fine with the clan and like you were good friends with everybody here, but one could expect you to finally stand to your words and stay here - for good. But again you seem to dislike something, and instead of working it out, you leave the clan to make your own thing. Wonder how people feel betrayed after the third time? Then was the blatant lying over your reasons for leaving. When you had private talks to me and others, you were honest about your reasons. My good friend Igrom left for similar reasons. The difference is: Igrom didn't lie about it. (plus, he didn't join another clan right away, he didn't cheat and stayed the same person he was before and didn't have to start cheating.) Your explanation of your wish to explore the competetive side of the game was a complete punch to my face. You left Xaulos with the reasoning, that you're not competetive enough for it and that you - in fact - didn't enjoy that part of the game anymore. You even made Hektor drop out of Xaulos and feel guilty for you. And then you leave, because you want to explore the competetive side again? As if you couldn't do that in SoL?! As if you didn't avoid the competetive side before?! This hypocricy hurt those who know the real reasons, it hurt the ones who were afflicted by your Xaulos-ruckus, and it was demeaning for the ones you held the grudge against. The last reason is your sudden change of mind to start cheating. If you'd have been always lenient with ks - like Grimmjow - none would've been surprised or feel betrayed. But you were one of the people, who were not content with the general leniency of SoL towards cheatings. And you showed, that you still aren't content with it - with right even! But instead of finally helping out to address this problem properly, you left. And if you read my post you'd know that you aren't the only one who's not content with that leniency. But no-one knows better than me, what horrible task it is, to confront a good friend of his cheating. This is not a problem easy to solve. But what do you do? You leave and ks few days later. If you're lenient with cheating, don't blame SoL! But even more: If being a member of SoL was the ONLY reason for you not to use a ks, if you never had a real conviction that ks is poison to the game in the first place, then you must've been fooling us the whole time. Or it is a harsh and sudden change of mind. And either is offending.
Subject: Re: Thought of the day Thu 09 Jul 2015, 6:19 am
3rd time? If people are seriously upset about me leaving after 2 WEEKS after I first joined because I was so new to the game, then I literally don't care. Grow up. You can't hold something against someone for 2 years because they were so new to the game that they just wanted to get training and get better.
I never lied in any of my posts. I don't have to put every reason on the forum, because it doesn't accomplish anything. I might tell my closer friends to get their advice on certain reasons, but other than that, I don't owe an entire explanation because it just offends people and makes it worse. Every reason I stated on the forum was 100% true. Are you in my head? Didn't think so, so how could you possibly know if the reasons I gave are true or not. I am the exact same person I was before. Xemnas, Epic, Enel, and Joe the four people I see on server who still treat me like a friend from SoL can attest to that. I don't go around laming people, I don't go around causing problems, I'm the same friendly player who was in SoL for 2 years. Not addressing your Xaulos comments because they are unrelated. Joining an FFA clan has nothing to do with Xaulos. The Xaulos issue blew up because people had to meddle and draw out the conversation. I was perfectly happy dropping out and not making a scene, and then I was forced into a scene. The fact is that SoL players generally like socializing, not fighting, which is fine. I enjoy talking with my friends too, but not just doing that. JiP server provides a perfect mix of both in my opinion, because the players there enjoy fighting and talking. I watch the Xaulos topic. There is maybe one fight every week that happens. I don't just want to sit on the server and just talk all the time. There are very few people in SoL who enjoy ffaing, and SoL is not a server where alot of FFA happens.
Again to the KS: I was so against it in SoL because people were ksing against people who dont KS. That isn't fair, and that is cheating. I don't KS against people who don't ks, so again, it doesnt affect any of you. Not really sure what SoL has wrong with the idea of a KS, but all I care is that the fight is fair. I don't care if the fight is fair with neither person ksing, or both people ksing. It makes no difference to me and I'm not sure why it makes a difference to you and other members of SoL.
I've never been a person who can just give all my reasons for everyone to see when making a change like leaving the clan. I don't enjoy offending people for no reason, so if I can avoid it. I gave you the courtesy of telling you all my reasons Xaso because I considered us friends. However if you are going to turn your back on Danek and I simply because you disagree with something that doesnt even affect you, I was clearly mistaken. Like I said, I have not changed at all. I use a KS against other KSers, which is the only difference from now to when I was in SoL.
Frankly Xaso you are the only person who's relationship has been "poisoned" as you put it, and while that saddens me, its out of my hands. I'm not going to stop ksing against other people simply because it offends you, because it shouldnt offend you. If I fought you and used a ks, that would be a reason to be offended because I would be cheating against you.
Subject: Re: Thought of the day Thu 09 Jul 2015, 8:26 am
I am not turning my back on Danek, he has turned his back on me. Yet I didn't mention him. He hasn't put forward anything yet. Neither has Bacara.
Xaulos is related. You backed out, because you didn't want competition. Now you left in search for competition. Your comment on Xaulos' activity however is unrelated. It has gone inactive much later, because I don't have the time to play this game atm. The people on our server weren't only talking. Those people you mentioned have a competetive side and show it. You didn't have to leave, in order to play with Enel... And you too didn't have to leave to fight with anyone of JiP.
So even if you didn't lie in your leaving topic, and your mind changed from "not competetive" to "competetive" over night, it is still hypocricy. You pretended reasons, that were not your reasons that you told others in private. You don't have to make your reasons public. But you shouldn't have come up with vanilla reasons to whitewash your departure. You had an aggressive tone in your posts before leaving and frustration was speaking from your writings. So you acted like a prima donna, then threw in the towel, and then played the "it's not your fault"-card. Ever wondered why that ticks off the one broken up with?
Your views on the KS are common. But if you follow "an eye for an eye" then one of us two has a wrong idea on what SoL stands for. I thought SoL was something uncommon. In this aspect Enel is more SoL than anyone. Don't cheat, just get better, if you want to be competetive. For those who aren't competetive, it might be: You don't need cheats to have fun. You seem to be in none of these groups...
To make it clear, as I stated initially in my post: I am not offended if anyone cheats against me. If I got angry about every cheater, I need to play a different game. I am offended by your hypocricy and pretense and by the fact, that you so easily desert, what you once cherished... or at least appeared to cherish.
And my reasons to hate Devy have nothing to do with cheats. My reasons to have a tough relationship to Sanyo have little to do with cheating. I like Sanyo much more than Devy, even though I think he cheats - but it's not leading very far to discuss that as well. Like I stated in my opening post: Cheaters can be nice persons, nice persons can cheat. Douchebags can be cheaters or not. It comes down to the special case.
Subject: Re: Thought of the day Thu 09 Jul 2015, 8:41 am
You don't know how long I thought about the decision. It was not an easy decision and I took nearly a month to finally make up my mind. You have no interest in listening to what I'm saying so I'm no longer going to argue. There is no way you can possibly know if the reasons I gave in my leaving topic are true or not because you aren't in my head. They are 100% true whether you are okay with accepting them or not. Are there additional reasons? Yes and I chose not to put them on a public topic for everyone to see. Xaulos was not a competitive FFA atmosphere which is what I was looking for and nobody but occasionally Enel cared about getting better them self or helping others get better.
Subject: Re: Thought of the day Thu 09 Jul 2015, 9:12 am
Wasn't a dodge. I say something that only I can know is true and you simply refute it. If you want a discussion, I'm game, but I'm not going to sit here and type the same thing because you don't want to accept what I say were my reasons. Saying my reasons don't make sense to you is one thing. Saying I'm lying and a hypocrite is entirely different
Subject: Re: Thought of the day Thu 09 Jul 2015, 9:14 am
Xaso I'm sorry but please stop pointing the judgemental cheat finger like you're some sort of holy saint. You accuse so many people of cheating ... me included and it's getting a little old now. Yeah cheating isn't allowed in the clan but you need to stop going about it like you're Outcast or something.
Subject: Re: Thought of the day Thu 09 Jul 2015, 9:23 am
Well considering all of your reasons have been torn apart, analyzed and counterpoints have been brought up, yet you say the same things over and over aw if what everyone else sees in factual points means nothing, I have to agree with xaso.
And I'm not saying this because I am mad or anything, I am emotionless right now.
Logically all I see is multiple people bringing up multiple reasons why your points are sketchy and you either fail or refuse to acknowledge them.
Idk it just screams sketchy to me.
My humble opinion is I don't care if you ks, or if you hated being sol or hate people in sol, regardless of what your reasons are it would be nice to know the whole truth publically. So if it is things that can be fixed for future members it can be so the same things don't occur again.
Keeping people in the dark helps no one man, speak up, let us hear you roar.
Subject: Re: Thought of the day Thu 09 Jul 2015, 9:47 am
BDL, it is kinda funny how you accuse me of being too harsh with cheating, while the other claims it's not harsh enough. But in the end I don't hate anyone for cheating. I am upset how people behave upon it. I am upset if people lie about their cheats and I can be upset if people condemn cheating on one day only to use it for themselves on the other day. I am not even discussing, if cheating is bad or not. But I am saying, that lying and hypocrisy is ticking me off. Juan Carlos was honorific president of the WWF. Then he shoots elephants. I am upset. Not so much because of the elephant. Many ppl illegally kill elephants. I am upset because of the hypocricy. This is pretty much the case with Zelah's ks. Not more, not less.
Subject: Re: Thought of the day Thu 09 Jul 2015, 9:56 am
I don't ks against people who don't, and I do against people who do. I don't care if people ks or not as long as they don't use it against someone who doesn't have it. I never lied about using a ks. Cheating is using something that another player cannot obtain to beat them. That's what I am against which is why I don't use it against everyone. My philosophy has not changed at all and therefore I am not hypocritical at all. You disagree? Fine. I don't create a topic to bad mouth you because I disagree.
Frankly I don't care if people approve of me using a ks or not lol. I'm not going to let someone saying they don't like me using a ks destroy a friendship. Apparently you are