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 SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it

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Zelah
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PostSubject: SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it   Thu 24 Dec 2015, 10:12 am

Hey folks:

A place to discuss the newest Star Wars movie the force awakens.

Personally I LOVED the movie. I felt the death was very emotional, and yet very well done. I know a lot of people say it is too similar to A New Hope, but for me that isn't a bad thing. I still felt it was a solid plot with very good pacing.

The new characters and actors were also very well done and chosen.

The way I look at this movie is that there wasn't a single time that I've watched it where I felt during the movie that a certain part was boring.

Definitely one of my personal favorite movies of all time Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it   Thu 24 Dec 2015, 11:45 am

Good Points: Han Solo and Chewbacca were great, shame that Han died but it's not that surprising considering that Harrison Ford wanted Han to be killed off in Ep6. Finn,Poe,Kylo Ren and Gen Hux are all very interesting and the actors done a great job.

Bad Points: Seemed to be too many jokes within the film, don't want to sound like a killjoy but a lot of the jokes just seemed to be out of place, especially from Finn who is meant to be a badass stormtrooper raised from birth (The Han/Chewie jokes and the BB-8 thumbs up were pretty funny though) Rey seemed a bit too OP for me, seems to be just as good a pilot as Han Solo when she's hardly piloted anything, and seemed WAY too powerful in the force when she hasn't trained at all (Mind trick on the stormtrooper, Kylo Ren fight) Lastly, there seemed to be a lack of Captain Phasma, who appears about 4 times within the whole film, I really hope her role in Ep8 is bigger.

Overall: It was FAR better than I expected, it never got too boring and I'm looking forward to Episode 8.
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PostSubject: Re: SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it   Sat 26 Dec 2015, 5:15 pm

I was dissapointed because finn was able to use a lightsaber against kaylo ren (who is a force user), i suppose finn will be revealed as a force user in the next movies, overall it was pretty fun and gave me a lot of good memories
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PostSubject: Re: SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it   Mon 28 Dec 2015, 12:43 pm

My new Star Wars movie ratings, from most to least favorite:
5>3>1=6>7>4>2

I liked The Force Awakens, and I think I will like it more after the release of the next two films. But it was one of my least favorite Star Wars theater experiences. I actually enjoyed Episode 2 in theater more than I enjoyed Episode 7, even though I think Episode 2 is the weakest film. The Force Awakens was enjoyable, but also disappointing. I would have liked to see more of the New Republic and its politics, as well as the political struggle against the First Order. But I will reserve my final judgement until after I've seen the other two films, which may make the choices in this film more understandable.

I thought the weakest part of the film was the character interaction, which is a shame because it's usually one of the best parts of a Star Wars film. But at least there were frequent gems among the turds.

I agree with pretty much everything Danek said about the movie. The only thing I would add is that, if you can look past Rey's inexplicably strong skills as a pilot and with the Force, I thought her character personality was better developed than Finn's. I thought they did a poor job developing the conflict in Finn between running away vs. doing the right thing. In the beginning he mostly wanted to run away (but also felt compelled to do the right thing sometimes), and by the end he wanted to do the right thing even if it was dangerous. I don't think the film captured the transition; instead, the audience has to infer it happened around the time when Rey was captured.

sebbat wrote:
I was dissapointed because finn was able to use a lightsaber against kaylo ren (who is a force user)
I didn't understand this while I was watching the movie, because we've always been told that only Jedi can safely wield lightsabers due to the risk to oneself without the Force as guidance. We may find that he is Force sensitive or it may just be implied (Hell, Han Solo is probably Force sensitive). But one thing we can infer is that Finn may have had some applicable training. We see him fight a Stormtrooper wielding a weapon capable of blocking a lightsaber; this type of training may be given to all Stormtroopers so that they can properly fight Jedi, and it may have helped Finn to wield a lightsaber. That's the only explanation I could come up with.

One thing I didn't understand: When Rey arrives at the Resistance base, how do she and Leia "recognize" each other so easily, even though they've never met (as far as we know)? When I watched the scene, I assumed they have the heartfelt moment because Han has died, and Rey conveys this to Leia when they lock eyes. Is there a different reason they have this moment, or at least more factors that cause it? Is it possibly because Rey is Luke's daughter, and we assume Rey and Leia feel a connection through the Force? If not, we can assume Leia knows Rey is the girl Finn wanted to rescue, but why would Rey know who Leia is? Is there something in the meeting in Maz's castle on Takodana that suggested Rey knew Leia? I think I remember Han and Maz discussing Han's relationship with Leia, but I don't remember anything suggesting Rey knew who Leia was.

Interestingly, I think the story of Jedi Outcast could still fit fairly well into the Disney universe, since Episode 7 references Luke's attempts to train a new order of Jedi, and because the Imperial Remnant may have organized into the First Order. But already most of our beloved EU universe, especially the novels, has been superseded.

I suspect the next two films will answer more questions, and hopefully we will get much more information about this new universe with new video games and novels. I wonder how Disney will address the "Expanded Universe vs. Disney universe" problem over the next couple decades.
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PostSubject: Re: SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it   Tue 29 Dec 2015, 6:46 am

wait! Nick, you like Episode 5 the most? You think the third Episode is the second best? And you say 1 and 6 are equally good? And the original Star Wars movie is the second worst?
At least we agree on the worst. xD

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PostSubject: Re: SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it   Tue 29 Dec 2015, 9:05 am

I think you bring up some good points Nick.

I am curious to what you meant by bad character interaction? I actually thought that was a strong point of the movie.

The Leia and Rey scene really puzzled me too at first, but I think it may be explained that simply both of them are force sensitive and could sense the pain the other felt at Han's death. Leia's connection to Han is obvious and the movie tries to portray that Rey sees him as a father figure so both of them would feel great pain by his death. Obviously I have no idea if that is true or not but that is what I'm telling myself because it makes sense to me xD

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PostSubject: Re: SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it   Tue 29 Dec 2015, 6:47 pm

Zelah wrote:
I am curious to what you meant by bad character interaction?  I actually thought that was a strong point of the movie.
I liked some of the character interaction. Supreme Leader Snoke, General Hux, BB-8, Maz, and Poe never had a bad scene.

Han and Chewbacca worked well together.

Rey, Finn, Han, Leia, and Kylo Ren had many awkward scenes, though. Writing a scene with the intent of making it awkward is fine. But when a scene is written to be awkward, you feel awkward FOR the characters, not for yourself watching the movie.

I found all of these unintentionally awkward:
  • Rey's dialogue when she saves BB-8 on Jakku
  • Half of the interaction between Rey and Finn aboard Han's cargo ship
  • When Rey first unsuccessfully tries to Mind Trick the Stormtrooper (because who would just randomly try it like that? It's even worse that it ends up working)
  • Kylo Ren's awkward lines trying to tell Rey she needs a "teacher." Guess it's time for her to go back to 4th grade.
  • The earlier scenes with Han, especially when he first meets Rey and Finn
  • All of the interaction between Han and Leia
There's more that I didn't like but those stick out.

My other complaints are that quite a few important lines were poorly written or lacked a sense of authenticity, that many of the action sequences felt more like the recent Hollywood superhero movies than Star Wars scenes, and that there were too many "self-awareness" jokes that didn't even produce unexpected results. (Example: At the Resistance base meeting before attacking the First Order's Starkiller Base, someone says something like "there's always a weakness in these things," and indeed, they find a weakness, and exploiting that weakness is exactly how Starkiller Base is destroyed. Not very humorous, 4th wall unnecessarily shattered. There were more instances of this in the movie too.)

I find myself missing George Lucas as Director. I'm not even surprised that I feel that way though. I've felt people were too critical of his direction for quite a few years. But if JJ Abrams combines all sorts of Star Wars lore with hints in Episode 7, and they all culminate in a master stroke of storytelling by Episode 9, I'll be happy.

My hope is that, after all three of the new films have been released, I will better understand the changes in direction for the new films, and I'll be able to appreciate them for what they are. Once I can rewatch them all in sequence, and then rewatch all nine of the movies together too, I hope I'll be able to to conceptualize them as a cohesive whole, even if each trilogy is unique.
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PostSubject: Re: SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it   Tue 29 Dec 2015, 10:59 pm

NickdeClaw wrote:
I find myself missing George Lucas as Director. I'm not even surprised that I feel that way though. I've felt people were too critical of his direction for quite a few years.
Anyone else noticed the lightsabers? I thought Kylo Ren got his leg cut off like three times (or at least some deep-looking cuts), yet it seems Chewbacca's bowcaster did more than a lightsaber. I found some of the jokes sounding like something out of a sit-com too which was off-putting. Not to mention that Kylo Ren had some parts of his training from Luke, but still managed to mostly lose to both: a stormtrooper, and an untrained force user. Some moments seemed a bit too "conveniently-evil" such as the Fascist Rally and the Ottoman Empire recruitment story. These are all just my opinions and observations (I have a few more but don't really feel like divulging those any time soon), but I am still curious to see what would George Lucas have done.
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PostSubject: Re: SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it   Wed 30 Dec 2015, 7:06 am

Ok, I've finally watched it and can enter the discussion! Very Happy (hope, I don't kill it). To start off: I very much agree with Danek and Nick! (Nick, you maybe should have studied literature or something! You're doing very well and systematic on evaluating the movie!)

I enjoyed the movie alot, more than I enjoyed the second and third episode, because in both of those movies I couldn't understand the character development of Anakin and Padme, and those movies are mostly about them. It's hard to judge any of the movies, without judging the other movies, so it's hard to judge the new one without judging others. Saying that I enjoyed it, makes it a good movie. But at no point I had the feeling, that it's gonna be a timeless movie, a feeling that I had in Episode 2 and 3 despite having the feeling that the movies weren't actually good.

It's pretty much how Zelah words it: it's been solid. It seems to me that Abrams knew very well what he was doing and he wanted to make a spectacular, worthwhile, likeable movie - and that's what he did. The plot was easy to follow and still not too flat. Like: You have a boy and a girl, they are attracted, but they don't instantly fall in love with each other but it's somewhat complicated. This creates tension. The villain is very evil, kills innocent ppl, but you figure it's Han's and Leia's son. He struggles with his ways and you don't know if he's gonna kill his father or not (well, I knew it, because Harrison Ford wanted to die in the movie, but within the movie, it wasn't too clear). Tension again. So the basics of the movie are well done in my opinion! There character constellation is interesting yet familiar, the mission of the story is clear but not a cliche.

So while you sit and watch the movie, you can get caught by that tension and the good setup and enjoy it. But that doesn't make it a timeless movie. A timeless movie adresses somewhat great conflicts of life that everyone relates to - if he wants or not - and gives a possible answer or a possible development of it in a unique way. (And by conflict I don't mean a dogma like of Aristoteles or Hegel - because good movies and plays can be made without knowing them!) But this movie hasn't done it. I thought of episode 2 that it shows how a democracy can turn into tyranny with everybody seeing it; episode 3 was a good boy turning bad, even though he has so much support and so much potential. These are just possible "conflicts" I mean, you can find others or you can describe them differently. And in particular I think that both of these movies didn't do well in adressing these conflicts. But they had them and they had all the tools to adress them. That makes them more timeless - at least for me - than episode 7. There was nothing unique, no "real" conflict.

There could have been a conflict within Kylo Ren, similar to the one of Anakin in episode 3 or 6. And even though the death of Han Solo was a strong scene, this movie didn't gave us the tools to understand Kylo Ren's decision. Yes, we know he was torn between darkness and light and that all of this was somehow linked to his parents and his father in particular, we saw that he somehow "wanted" to be on the dark side and that he had to struggle with himself to get there. But we couldn't watch his way to that decision. We only saw that he was angry. There was potential in a scene between him and Rey, when he said that Han was the father for her she never had. But it wasn't adressed. Now this does create tension, making the movie thrilling and some people like this kind of vagueness. I certainly don't and it's a weakness of the movie for me.

I also agree with Nick: The remnants of the empire vs the new Republic would have been an excelent field to look for conflicts: How does the new Republic find reasons for their authority? How does the First Order? Who has more right to rule? There was also potential, when Kylo Ren told Rey that she was supporting murderers and thiefs. But this conflict would have made a very different movie. No slight changes could have helped this movie to achieve this.

Furthermore I agree with the lacks in character interaction, that Nick listed. From my point of view they have to do and maybe result from the fact, that such a basic conflict was missing. What does the movie wanna show or tell me? What's it deeper sense? Only if you know this, you can make such interactions on the spot, make them hit the nail on the head and make them create a whole and fitting movie.

So putting Nick's observations into my formula, I miss the answers to those questions:
Why and how does Finn change sides? How is he feeling on his "new" side?
Why and how does Rey let herself be torn into the whole story? What's her motivation to help both the droid and Finn? What makes her go the line to the end - even to Luke?
Why is Kylo Ren so angry? What struggle was inside of him, and why and how did it end in killing his father? What consequences will come from this?
What was Han doing as a smuggler again and why? If it had to do with his son, what thinking did he leave Leia because of that and has he changed his mind? What did change his mind and why? The same questions for Leia. (I think their dialogues have been so awkward, because these questions haven't been thought through making the movie. They came around with this "we had to deal with it our separate ways" and that's it. Making the whole interaction shallow.)
There's more, but I think I leave it at this... post is too long anyway.

After all I think the movie was solid, but it wasn't deep and since it wasn't deep enough character development and interaction was shallow and awkward at times. (reminder: personal opinion)

PS: And as a Chiss I can only disapprove the absence of Grandadmiral Thrawn...

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PostSubject: Re: SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it   Wed 30 Dec 2015, 11:52 am

I have to watch it again anyway...couldnt get a ticket for the original cut.
German only.
I have to watch it in english ._.
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PostSubject: Re: SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it   Wed 30 Dec 2015, 3:22 pm

Great analysis, Xaso! You've captured most everything I felt about the film much better than I can articulate. The structure of your critique helps me to better understand my own experience of the film, too!

I think you're absolutely correct about the lack of deep exploration of conflict causing the awkward character interaction. This new way of conceptualizing the film opens the floodgates in my mind for so many possibilities of what Episode 7 could have been. I hope the next two films will help realize Episode 7's potential. Or at the very least, other forms of media (games, books) fill in the gaps. Even if Episode 7 alone isn't timeless, it would be wonderful if the entire trilogy experience were. I doubt this was JJ Abrams's intent, but one can dream.
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PostSubject: Re: SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it   Thu 31 Dec 2015, 2:59 am

I've heard a lot of the same thoughts about the movie and I had a lot of the same thoughts the first time I saw it. I think I look at it differently now though. The fact that a lot of the major plot points and character developments don't get fully answered in this movie actually really excites me and makes it better to me. Having Kylo and Rey's full confrontation in this movie would make me less excited about the next movies because it would leave nowhere for their interactions to go.

Also I fully expect them to go more into Kylo's inner turmoil in the next 2 movies. If we knew a lot more about his struggle already in this first movie, I think it would diminish him as a character for the remaining movies. I know it's a different way of looking at it but that's my thoughts on that part of the discussion Smile

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PostSubject: Re: SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it   Thu 31 Dec 2015, 3:12 am

Zelah wrote:
I've heard a lot of the same thoughts about the movie and I had a lot of the same thoughts the first time I saw it.  I think I look at it differently now though.  The fact that a lot of the major plot points and character developments don't get fully answered in this movie actually really excites me and makes it better to me.  Having Kylo and Rey's full confrontation in this movie would make me less excited about the next movies because it would leave nowhere for their interactions to go.

Also I fully expect them to go more into Kylo's inner turmoil in the next 2 movies.  If we knew a lot more about his struggle already in this first movie, I think it would diminish him as a character for the remaining movies.  I know it's a different way of looking at it but that's my thoughts on that part of the discussion Smile

^ This.

Same goes for Luke. All he did was turn around, put his hood down, have a puzzled look, and just before you think they talk, credits go. I'm excited to see what happens in the next 2. I think it's too early to judge this one, before learning the plot of this trilogy.

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PostSubject: Re: SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it   Thu 31 Dec 2015, 4:08 am

Vader wrote:
Zelah wrote:
I've heard a lot of the same thoughts about the movie and I had a lot of the same thoughts the first time I saw it.  I think I look at it differently now though.  The fact that a lot of the major plot points and character developments don't get fully answered in this movie actually really excites me and makes it better to me.  Having Kylo and Rey's full confrontation in this movie would make me less excited about the next movies because it would leave nowhere for their interactions to go.

Also I fully expect them to go more into Kylo's inner turmoil in the next 2 movies.  If we knew a lot more about his struggle already in this first movie, I think it would diminish him as a character for the remaining movies.  I know it's a different way of looking at it but that's my thoughts on that part of the discussion Smile

^ This.

Same goes for Luke. All he did was turn around, put his hood down, have a puzzled look, and just before you think they talk, credits go. I'm excited to see what happens in the next 2. I think it's too early to judge this one, before learning the plot of this trilogy.

Agreed, I am way more interested that Luke is unhappy to see her at the end then if he readily took the lightsaber ready to train her. That wouldn't fit with the character they have set up in the dialogue of 7.

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PostSubject: Re: SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it   Thu 31 Dec 2015, 2:42 pm

Zelah wrote:
The fact that a lot of the major plot points and character developments don't get fully answered in this movie actually really excites me and makes it better to me. Having Kylo and Rey's full confrontation in this movie would make me less excited about the next movies because it would leave nowhere for their interactions to go.

... If we knew a lot more about his struggle already in this first movie, I think it would diminish him as a character for the remaining movies.
I enjoy when movies leave unanswered questions, too. But the way to skillfully create unanswered questions involves a delicate balance between revealing information and withholding it. Some of that balancing was present, but it was absent in too many important aspects of the film. Unanswered questions become powerful when we have just enough information to know that the question has an answer that will be present in the storytelling. There are many mechanisms by which a film can give us this information. One of those mechanisms is playing out conflict, but you don't necessarily have to arrive at a resolution to the conflict for the conflict to be meaningful.

Episode 7 leaves us with questions that we're afraid WON'T have an answer in the storytelling. Unless JJ Abrams really delivers in the next two films in unexpected ways, many of those questions will probably never get answers. And if that's the case, the questions probably weren't actually intended to be questions in the first place. At that point, unanswered questions are just a symptom of a lack of developed conflict. (In the absence of conflict delivered via the direction of the movie, the audience is left searching for the conflict they BELIEVE must exist, but in reality, they are just filling the void of empty conflict with questions whose answers would complete the narrative.)

I also don't think it would be sufficient to develop the core conflict in tertiary works such as video games and novels. It's fine to add details to your film that aren't explained in the film -- like extra alien races, technology, or minor characters -- and then have them explained in separate books or games. But the films of the trilogy absolutely must develop the core conflicts of the plot and between the characters. I'm worried they won't.

If the answers to those questions aren't addressed in the next two films (read: if the conflict isn't developed in the next two films), I will be disappointed. But as Xaso mentions, Episode 7 itself is already NOT a timeless film, because it does not deliver the story in this balanced way. We could have been equally excited about Episode 8 if the conflicts had been more developed, but the same (or similar) questions remained. If Episode 7 had achieved a timeless quality, it would have created a narrative that both reveals complexity and motivations while also clearly and deliberately asking important questions. But the movie did not clearly ask those questions. We only hope that the questions we are left with, are indeed the questions JJ Abrams intended for us to ask. Hopefully Episode 8 will show us that he did intend those things. But it still doesn't change the fact that Episode 7, itself, remains a weak movie, even if it ends up being part of a strong trilogy.

(UNLESS the trilogy does something new I can't anticipate, which could reveal a strength in Episode 7 that I am currently incapable of appreciating. That would be great, but I'm not holding my breath.)
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PostSubject: Re: SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it   Thu 31 Dec 2015, 2:54 pm

You are right, Zelah and Vader, not all of what I (or others) said could or should have been implemented in Episode 7, that would have been too much! There has to be something left for 8 and 9 ^^ But still I have the impression, that some scenes in the movie lacked integral content - content that could have not only filled Episode 7, but that could at the same time have opened doors for 8 and 9 without foreclosing opportunities for these... I am afraid that with the lack of deepness in episode 7 some good developments that might come in 8 or 9 could come out of nowhere. I mean: in the 2 previous trilogies Lucas managed to have coherent stories (even though it were well separate movies) in a way, that there are character and plot arcs from 1 - 3 and from 4 - 6. Since the vague or empty or at least lacking character disposition in episode 7 might result in mere allusions or thematic cliches in the following movies. But we will see, I trust in Abrams to surprise me ^^

@ Nick
I'm glad you find my concept useful ^^ I had the same floodgate effect when I started to study greek, where we learned alot about drama conceptualizing. Unfortunately the effect leads to more questions after a while, especially when trying to define more precisely the core terms of the concept. My scheme was rather raw on Ep. 7 here, and if you dig deeper into the thought of "what makes a good plot" or "what is a conflict" you will find how much space for dispute there is - hence my cryptic allusion to Hegel and Aristoteles. Neither of both is (sadly) useful for Episode 7 I think... But episode 1-6 are a great opportunity to think through from a conceptualized point of view!

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PostSubject: Re: SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it   Fri 01 Jan 2016, 7:40 pm

Basically how to make episode 7 copy episode 4 script and make different characters and add in some minior details and your done. Thats how I throught of the movie other than that I enjoyed some of it. 6/10
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PostSubject: Re: SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it   Wed 06 Jan 2016, 7:15 am

So now that I think everyone has had more time to see the movie, maybe see it again once or twice, and just think about the movie, what are peoples' thoughts about one of, if not the biggest mystery coming out of the movie, Rey's parentage.

Personally, I think she is Luke's daughter. I would be disappointed if she was not part of the Skywalker family tree as either a Skywalker or a Solo, and since she has now seen Han and Leia, it seems less likely that they wouldn't recognize their own daughter. Then again they wouldn't have seen her for MANY years so I still consider it possible. But like I said, I think it makes the most sense if she is Luke's daughter. What are your thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: SPOILERS: Force Awakens Discussion: Stay out if havent seen it   Wed 06 Jan 2016, 12:30 pm

For me it´s kinda obvious she is Luke´s daughter, for her affinity with the Force and even in one of the trailers you can listen to Luke talking and saying: The Force in my family, my father had it, my sister has it, I have it... and you have it too and I guess he is talking to Rey (stolen lines from Episode 8?). We´ll see! Very Happy
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