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 FFA Opinions

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Zelah

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PostSubject: FFA Opinions   Sat 14 Oct 2017, 3:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

Hey All:

I've heard over the last couple months of various discussions happening in SoL about mwheel, kamod, and other "cheats". From my understanding, there were proposals specifically for mwheel to be allowed in SoL, but that those were shot down by... with all due respect... older players of the clan. I wanted to participate in said discussion, but obviously couldn't as I am not in SoL right now, but I've had talks with a few other members, and after seeing the H4ST topic, I simply don't want to remain silent anymore on it. You can feel free to ignore me, as I have literally no power in SoL given I am not in SoL... but SoL will always hold a special place for me, and so if I see something that I feel like hurts my friends in SoL, and hurts the clan as a whole, I'm going to speak up about it Very Happy

I didn't play the game 10 years ago, so can't speak to absolutely what went down back then, but from what I've heard from many players, it sounds like with an obviously much larger player population, there was a wider range of players and interests... NFers, FFers, FFAers, role players, gun players, etc... In that time, I could see the desire for a clan to set a rule of no cheats of any kind, to ensure that this type of gameplay is being followed on their server. However, such is not the case anymore. You see NFers, and FFAers, and that's about it. People still chat or have fun in other ways, but when you boil it down, those are basically it... so now when you say that you don't allow any kind of cheats, you are blocking off a LARGE population of the game from being able to join your clan. FFA is a "cheating" community. Virtually every player who participates in FFA uses at the very least mwheel, and many players use other game enhancements as well. So to say that in order to join the clan you have to give up all cheats... you are asking any player who wants to join your clan, to knowingly make themselves fight at a disadvantage if they want to be part of your community. Now players might decide that the community is worth that and choose to join anyways, but what does that accomplish? You're ruining their gameplay in the style of the game they most enjoy playing... so that you can feel better about yourself? I totally get not allowing cheats in your clan tournaments so that everyone is on level ground. You might have players in your clan who choose to not use cheats still, and leveling the playing field totally is totally fair for a clan rank tournament. That isn't the case in the FFA world.. which as of now is frankly what the majority of combat in the game is... In a depleting game with less and less players, why would you want to isolate so many players from wanting to join your clan? You had a perfectly nice player in H4ST almost get kicked, or not allowed to join... not because he was a jerk or insulting players... not because he was harassing anyone... but because he wants a fair fight in the style of game he chooses to play. Why would you punish your members for wanting to be in the community, and forcing them to have worse gameplay? I see posts about trying to rebuild your community, which I for one would love to see, but I promise you that with your rules as strict as they are... you are simply isolating players. For my own personal position, I for one (if something ever happened with JiP that it was disbanded or I left) would never rejoin SoL with the current rules as they stand. I love SoL, and I think/hope everyone recognizes that. You're all good-hearted and respectful people who just like to enjoy the game in many different ways... but forcing me, especially as a US player already with a ping disadvantage, to again fight at a disadvantage to the rest of the FFA community is just dumb and unnecessary. I am no different a person because I choose to level the FFA playing field by using mwheel, the same as H4ST is no different a person now that he has agreed to stop. He simply is forced to fight at a disadvantage from now on.

I understand the idea of fair combat that SoL stands for, but I'm sorry that in ffa... that is a thing of the past. If you want to be competitive in FFA, you add enhancements such as mwheel... its why all the best players use at least mwheel, and the best players who don't will never be able to match them. I know SoL is not specifically an FFA clan, but you have members who primarily play FFA... and who knows but if you made your rules less strict on cheats... you might gain new members. Cheats don't make someone any different of a person, and to summarize it all... I think it's silly to reject a perfectly nice player whos looking for a good community, because of them wanting to have fair fights in FFA.

Like I said, I'm not in SoL anymore, and you all might choose to ignore this... which is fine. I just needed to feel like I've done my part to help my friends in SoL, and help what I really think is best for SoL as a clan. Okay enough rambling. I'm happy for a continued discussion if anyone chooses to engage and would love if this sparked more discussion even in member chat if you all feel you wanted to discuss this behind closed doors, but I've done my part Smile

Hope you all are well!
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Zelah

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PostSubject: Re: FFA Opinions   Tue 17 Oct 2017, 3:02 pm

NickdeClaw wrote:
mwheel has never worked for me on the 4 mice I've tried it on. I believe others when they say it does work for them. But clearly it only works for some hardware and not for other hardware.

The reasoning people give for wanting to allow it is that mwheel makes them more competitive against others who also use mwheel or scripts. I believe them when they say mwheel is more effective for kicks, but I can't test it myself because it doesn't work for me.

So mwheel gives an advantage, and not everyone has the potential to do it. If I'm part of a group that champions fair play (SoL), I'm probably voting against mwheel because it creates an unfair playing field. Of course there are people who use those things outside of SoL, and so there is already an unfair playing field. That is the entire point of being in a group of people who reject those things.

As an analogy, you join an organization to protect the environment of Earth because there are people who are damaging the environment through pollution. Protecting the environment of Earth requires laws and regulation, and in the short term it makes you less competitive in a global economy where other nations are NOT trying to limit their carbon emissions. But you do it anyways, because protecting the environment of Earth is important to you.

Maybe other people don't believe the environment of Earth is actually being damaged. Maybe the climate is just changing as part of a cycle, and our lives will be different, but not worse. As human beings they're free to have that opinion, I guess. If they truly believe that, then I can see why they wouldn't want environmental regulation because it makes their nation less competitive in the global economy.

I originally joined ATS because fair play was important to me. Over the years I have been mildly frustrated by playing against people with cheats or scripts, but it never made me angry in a way that made me search for a way to even the playing field quickly. If something ever seemed vaguely cheat-like and its purpose was purely to gain a competitive edge, it has just never interested me in the slightest. (Now gameplay bugs with weird effects are a different story, because a lot of those are fun!)

So that's the backstory on my feelings. But here's my main feeling:

There are countless clans and guilds that have allowed mwheel and scripting, and some that even allow blatant cheats. There are very few that disallow all of them. If you care more about becoming competitive with the modern FFA scene than you do about philosophizing over what is a fundamentally fair way of playing the game, why choose SoL? You could change the rules of SoL and allow scripting, but then you destroy one of the last spaces that aims to create a script-free environment. What's the point of that? It seems tragic to change this fundamental part of our clan just because it makes you more competitive in FFA.

And now for the maybe surprising part. I don't actually feel very strongly about mwheel. The main reason is that if I tried to set it in the options menu and it worked for me, I'd be shocked that other people considered it a cheat. I'd probably feel like it's their fault for not buying hardware that allows that advantage. And so I don't feel too strongly about mwheel, because I'm sure the people who use mwheel didn't go into it feeling like they were being sneaky. They're just trying to make their controls more comfortable.

But it doesn't change the fact that mwheel gives an advantage according to people who use it, and so I'd still rather people chose not to use it because it doesn't work on many mice, as far as we know. If I play against someone who uses mwheel, I won't consider the fight fair. Neither should they.

But SoL is a democracy, so if you want to change the rules, anyone is free to try to convince a majority to vote in favor of the change. Historically, rejecting cheats is something I considered a fundamental core value of SoL that would never change, but it's not nearly as important as democracy. If the younger generation doesn't care about mwheel, vote to change it. But respect the right of the less active older members to also vote against it; you knew when you joined that these things were not allowed, but you still chose to join this unique place among the many other clans that allow mwheel, scripting, or cheats. Understand that the old people have only one home to come back to, and if they can't recognize it when they return, they're probably dead for good.

The hardware thing is weird I haven't really heard of that before. Perhaps someone smarter than me has an answer for that they can speak to but I unfortunately cannot. I understand a lot of what you're saying as a place for fair play and SoL representing a place for that, but here's my question... when is the point that something no longer becomes an unfair advantage? If 95% of the game was using mwheel, and only 5% didn't, would you still hold that mwheel is an unfair advantage and want to ban usage in your clan? I don't think script-free, and fair play are interchangeable words anymore, because in the FFA world, as you said, being script free is not fair play. You play at a disadvantage, something I totally respect in people's choice, but I also respect the desire for a fair fight. So I guess if SoL's position is being script free, that is something I personally could accept, and while I'd disagree, I think the statement that SoL wants to keep a part of the game being script free is a perfectly great message to send. If however, SoL's main pillar is fair play, than I think being script free is something that needs to be looked at again.
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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: FFA Opinions   Tue 17 Oct 2017, 3:51 pm

Zelah wrote:
The hardware thing is weird I haven't really heard of that before.  Perhaps someone smarter than me has an answer for that they can speak to but I unfortunately cannot.
To be honest I expect it's a software thing, but not sure. So far I only know of people for whom it never works, and people for whom it always works, no matter the mouse. I'm playing on JK2 installed via original CD and manually patched to 1.04. It was the same for me on Windows 7, Windows 10, and even Windows XP if I recall correctly.

As for the fairness and the 95% vs 5%, I'm sure you know my answers.
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Light
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PostSubject: Re: FFA Opinions   Tue 17 Oct 2017, 5:00 pm

Zelah wrote:
If 95% of the game was using mwheel, and only 5% didn't, would you still hold that mwheel is an unfair advantage and want to ban usage in your clan?

With that argument you can say the same about wallhack, jkbot, etc. Do we have to go against our principles to preserve them? Do we have to confuse means and ends? Do we have to follow the desire of other people just because they are the mayority and don't try to be an alternative to their questionable play style?
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Zelah

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PostSubject: Re: FFA Opinions   Tue 17 Oct 2017, 5:16 pm

That is up for you all to decide as a clan. That is why I brought up the point of whether SoL represents fair play, or being cheatfree. Because in the current population of the game, using mwheel is fair play, but not cheat free. My personal stance is all about fair play and I couldn't care less about what that means... whether it means everyone using mwheel, or sabers only, or doing a gun battle where everyone has the same gun... it doesn't matter to me as long as both sides play fair. Not everyone sees the game that way which is fine, but that is how FFA minded players generally see the game, and you have several of those members in SoL.
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PostSubject: Re: FFA Opinions   Tue 17 Oct 2017, 7:01 pm

My questions were rhetorical...

I ask them because it seemed like you were implying that its ok to confuse means with ends. I don't believe someone should cheat because everyone does it; that wont get you to fairness (or justicie if you want), fair play or equality (i separate this three concepts because i think you are mixing them up). Even if you think that it would be equal if both players have same cheats, thats wouldn't be fair because you wouldn't be taking into account different conditions like pings, delay in-game, lag spikes. Do you really think that allowing mwheel would help players with high pings like my case for example? No, it wouldn't make any difference, plus the other will have mwheel too. You cannot change the pre-conditions (ping, lags, delay) of a player and it wouldn't be right to counter those conditions with cheats as it won't be fair play.
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Xasomur

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PostSubject: Re: FFA Opinions   Tue 17 Oct 2017, 9:02 pm

Zelah wrote:
My personal stance is all about fair play and I couldn't care less about what that means... whether it means everyone using mwheel, or sabers only, or doing a gun battle where everyone has the same gun... it doesn't matter to me as long as both sides play fair.
you wanted to say: as long as both sides play fair or both sides play unfair. I really much like Nick's comparison. It fits perfectly. But talking about fairness and fair play, the obvious comparison is the olympics and doping. Sure you could openly allow doping, since you know many athletes use it now and conceal it. You could just allow everyone to dope and it's "fair" again. Everyone who can live with a doping-contest at the olympics can vote for that. But I most certainly wouldn't want to be an athlete in those olympics, nor would I watch it or consider it sports.
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Zelah

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PostSubject: Re: FFA Opinions   Wed 18 Oct 2017, 3:28 am

@light mwheel would definitely help with your ping mate. I assume by your comment you've never used and that's why you say that, but it absolutely helps more regardless of your ping.

@xasomur
The doping comparison is finally one that mostly holds up. Obviously you have to take away the real life health risks of doping, and if you do that the comparison sticks. I wouldn't want to see the Olympics allow doping. The vast majority of athletes arent using in the Olympics. However, if almost every athlete was using doping and getting away with it, and my country continued to lose every time because of it, I would absolutely want the rules changed to level the playing field. If that would happen, you would then find every person coming of age after would simply see doping as part of the Olympics, which is how JK2 is now. Mwheel is kicking in ffa. There's nothing unfair about it, because it is the standard way to kick in ffa. I get that since basically none of you arguing against mwheel play ffa now, you still see it as unfair, and maybe that's just how it will stay. It does seem the position of SoL is anti-cheat and not fair play, which doesnt make as much sense to me in the context of a video game, but if we were talking about a more serious real life situation I would evidently be on your side, but in a game meant for fun, if just seems like pointless and unnecessary frustration to keep forcing the players in your clan who do actively play ffa to fight at the disadvantage. It's your clan and you can choose to run it how you see fit, but I think if you came on jk2 and played on the ffa servers for a while, your opinion might sway... but maybe I'm wrong :p. Either way I feel like you've all answered me well enough that I, and probably the ffa members of SoL can understand SoL's position and make informed decisions based on that so i thank you all for engaging me this last time about this Smile
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