holy shit !

Woot ! outcast has surpassed himself : http://atsjk2.forumotion.com/

I must say gg on that, he's made great job ( even if the rules ranks and etc on jk2 main menu font sux ). It's really well done, i don't know how he's made that, gg outcast =)))

Voss knows how to do that kind ot things very well, so cos i have seen what voss can do that dosen't look so cool xP But still nice job

Thats is REALLY nice...

I like this part alot http://atsjk2.forumotion.com/Roster-Pg2-h9.htm

No, that's not gg Ajunta. The site is entirely flash-based now because that's all he knows how to do. It is TERRIBLE web coding. A web coder would laugh at you if you tried to give them that as a final product. Flash is not meant to be the backbone of a site, it's meant to make certain animations or for games.

Would you want to have to use that shit every day on our forum? No, because it's not enjoyable to use. It looks pretty when you first look at it, but then it's a pain in the ass to utilize and it makes obnoxious sounds.

It's atrocious. Please never make something like this if you go into web coding, it's embarrassing.

I think its really nice, except how new tabs open on every link.

Or how it takes forever for it to load? Or how the links disappear when you hover over them? Or how you need flash installed in the first place to even use it? Or how screen readers can't utilize it because it's purely visual? Or how the noises are extremely intrusive?

The website is not a game, it should not be programmed like one. It's an information resource and should primarily be accessible. Flash is not accessible, it's only used to be - indeed - "flashy." It might get you some sales and people might be impressed, but the average user does not actually want to have to deal with using it, and real web coders will laugh at you for these reasons.

I know, I'm laughing. (except for you lot not comprehending how not enjoyable using that site on a day-to-day basis would be)

I think the fleshes made Abrum

It is a bit of a strain on the eye. It is a sad marketing scheme to me. Pretty to draw people in, not realizing that it is full of BS. lol

nick is just jealous

no nick is right. But we arn't all coders, and don't all know how it works, me i've just seen it from outside, as a spectator view, looking at a thing just once, like said nick, that's why i said gg. But for the work itself, i let pros debate on that x)

Flash is only should be used for games and animations not for a whole site. the problem is it takes a long time to load and its annoying outcast your a stupid fu ck once again.

I think I made an article on a security forum about the advantages of using flash like years
ago.

To Nick: Coming from a web designer/programmer that is a pretty good design and I personally encourage flash to be used especially for clan-based websites. There are various examples of forums being made in flash, and you won't be able to even tell that its in flash.

Loads longer? Programmers should learn better coding and maybe it wont load as much.

Ok the advantages of flash: Once its done loading, it doesn't have to load again! And I'm talking about various pages here. Instead of clicking on a page and waiting it to load then another and another. It just loads it all. Well depends if the web designer makes it like that.

It is true that by default it loads longer then regular websites. But each year Adobe is getting better at that problem. Like right now, they nearly have created the version that is compatible on phones. And unlike before Adobe + Google have made Flash SEO Freindly (Not as much though.. yet).

Everyone has to have it installed? Yes, its called getting with the times. Everyone has to have Java installed. And so lots of other stuff. It's not that difficult to install it (its about 1 MB I believe).

Now I'm not saying flash should replace CSS/XHTML. However I would encourage flash to be combined with CSS/XHTML. Many multi-million dollar companys use this technique? There are lots of good examples of these types of websites (Like look up top 10 flash websites).

At the end its not really about what language to use, but what you want to get. If you think that adding animation/music/etc. to a website will make it look good and at the same time accessible. Then use Flash to achieve this (or a combination of languages).

And if your getting into web coding, flash developers make about 30k/40k more then regular developers.

Now from a developers side: Dealing with flash is very easy compared dealing with other things. As flash proffesional is a scripting language/Graphic Engine/Animation Engine all in one. So its a lot easier to access it since its all one tool.

Another good thing about it is (however you can accomplish something similiar with PHP and such) is that if you have the same flash menu on everypage and want to add a button, all you have to do is edit that flash menu and it will change on every page. If you use XHTML/CSS you would have to add a button to every page to your menu.


Now about the website lol:

I like the layout, but it seems that Outcast has never heard of a Preloader. And also why wasn't the TM removed from the sword Lol.

The buttons need to be highlighted more and the whole rollover cr@p is unnessasary. Outcast (or whoever made the website) dosen't use the flash advantage to load multiple pages at once, instead he makes it more annoying.

This website loads way longer then this website: http://lucasarts.com/ (also in flash)

Edit: There are other flaws here, but the design itself looks nice.

Nightmare_I wrote:

To Nick: Coming from a web designer/programmer that is a pretty good design and I personally encourage flash to be used especially for clan-based websites.

You encourage it because it's the main thing you know. Flash is fine for animations/games and for advertising. It's not good for being functional. A forum is used by many people very often, Flash makes using the website become a burden.

Nightmare_I wrote:

Ok the advantages of flash: Once its done loading, it doesn't have to load again! And I'm talking about various pages here. Instead of clicking on a page and waiting it to load then another and another. It just loads it all.

This is not an advantage of Flash. XHTML/CSS operates this way too if no changes are made to the page. Similarly, you would have to reload the page if a change were made to the flash as well. You can also load an entire page and have instant access to other "pages" with XHTML/CSS, I've done this on multiple websites. It's called "display: none;" But loading everything at once is not usually a good idea simply because few users are going to use everything. There are legitimate uses for loading everything at once, but most of the time it's just going to be a burden to the user with no benefits received. This same principle is why people disable Superfetch on Vista/W7 so that the hard drive doesn't thrash during OS load. A good rule of thumb is to just load everything that you will likely need for the current page, or certain other things if they are time sensitive upon being called for.

Nightmare_I wrote:

Everyone has to have it installed? Yes, its called getting with the times. Everyone has to have Java installed. And so lots of other stuff. It's not that difficult to install it (its about 1 MB I believe).

This is an issue because Flash is not intended to be the backbone of a site. You can use it that way if Flash is what you're best at, but scholarly sources everywhere will agree with my saying that it is not good web practice. Flash isn't installed by default because it is not a web standard, it's a proprietary add-on, and it should be treated as such.

Nightmare_I wrote:

Now I'm not saying flash should replace CSS/XHTML. However I would encourage flash to be combined with CSS/XHTML. Many multi-million dollar companys use this technique? There are lots of good examples of these types of websites (Like look up top 10 flash websites).

Yes, this is how it SHOULD be. Flash being combined with XHTML/CSS/JavaScript. XHTML for the structure of the site, CSS for the appearance, JavaScript for the functionality, and Flash for the eye candy.

Nightmare_I wrote:

And if your getting into web coding, flash developers make about 30k/40k more then regular developers.

This is a valid point, but only when you're developing for clients that are not knowledgeable on the subject. At a <em>truly</em> big-name company, a JavaScript or server-side programming expert is going to make significantly more money than the guy who just does Flash. There are exceptions, like websites devoted to advertising upcoming products where Flash is great because of the eye candy (I'm thinking video game advertisement websites), but for interactive websites like forums or e-commerce sites, Flash would be a huge burden if it were the framework for the site, and that's why you don't see it.

Nightmare_I wrote:

Now from a developers side: Dealing with flash is very easy compared dealing with other things. As flash proffesional is a scripting language/Graphic Engine/Animation Engine all in one. So its a lot easier to access it since its all one tool.

It's easy to access it if <em>you're the one developing it</em>, but it's NOT easy to access it for your collaborators. Flash is its own little thing living in an igloo, it's not easily accessible to HTML/CSS/JavaScript coders. This is why Flash is good for games, because the website housing the game doesn't have to interact with the game; all the changes are neatly kept inside the flash application. But in terms of making a website that relies largely on Flash, it's not accessible to other programmers, it's not as accessible to the average user, and it's far less accessible to people with disabilities who are using the page. <strong>I can't tab to ANY of the buttons inside Flash, how am I supposed to use the site if I'm using a screenreader?</strong>

Nightmare_I wrote:

Another good thing about it is (however you can accomplish something similiar with PHP and such) is that if you have the same flash menu on everypage and want to add a button, all you have to do is edit that flash menu and it will change on every page. If you use XHTML/CSS you would have to add a button to every page to your menu.

This is not true. Server-side includes allow you to do this in XHTML/CSS, and you don't even have to configure anything with PHP, it's standard with most Apache configurations. I use this on multiple websites.

Nightmare_I wrote:

Edit: There are other flaws here, but the design itself looks nice.

Here I have to disagree, but that's just a matter of opinion. There are some serious contrast issues and usability concerns with icons disappearing on rollover, and the intrusive sound is annoying. If the contrast had been fixed it would be a pretty picture, but I still would not enjoy having to use it on a daily basis, it's simply cumbersome.

"This is an issue because Flash is not intended to be the backbone of a site. You can use it that way if Flash is what you're best at, but scholarly sources everywhere will agree with my saying that it is not good web practice. Flash isn't installed by default because it is not a web standard, it's a proprietary add-on, and it should be treated as such."

Depends on the source. This is actually a common debate that is being constantly discussed.


Another thing I forgot to mention. Flash is more secure then JavaScript. 1.You won't be able to read flash code in the first place (although I heard there is different software that can change that. However so far all the software I used to access swf files wasn't exactly powerful enough to read all of the code.) 2.JavaScript is being constantly CraXed!

You said that flash is a burden. I don't understand what you mean by that. If your talking about the loading time, well it really depends on how much effects/graphics/data/program design has the designer put into that specific flash file.

While I agree that flash shouldn't be used to create forums or e-commerce websites because of SEO and other problems.
However I believe your overlooking what flash offers and limiting to where it can be used.

The thing about flash is that its limitless, and when you need to cross the limits of other web languages then that's when you use flash.

Accessibility:
1. Flash may be an add-on like adobe reader (don't have it then you can't read pdf files its that simple), but its a pretty serious add-on which most people in the world have installed.

2. Collaboration, yes well the people your working with/or team will also have to be experienced in flash to get whats happening. That's just like a C++ programmer is going to give his code to a couple of COBOL programmers. It won't really work out.
-Actually if you know JavaScript, then flash wouldn't be difficult to figure out (As ActionScript is heavily based of JavaScript).

3. The problem with flash is that its new compared to everything else. So it's not as compatible with every other language as it should be (yet).

4. Flash supports vector based graphics which (I personally believe) to be the evolution in graphics technology.


Since its vector based it also allows great Scalability.

5. It supports audio (various different formats).

6. Keyboard Accessibility. This isn't used as much as it should be. But I would love it if this would be more commonly used, so there will be various different ways to access one thing (this type of navigation system is used in some games).

7. It's an Adobe program. This kind of fixes the compatibility issue a bit. Since it is an adobe program, it is more friendly with other Adobe programs (Photoshop/Fireworks/Dreamweaver/Illustrator/etc.)

-As for the screen reader problem. There are different alternatives to solve this issue. For example you can provide a separate alternative XHTML & CSS based page/pages for screen readers and such.

The cons of flash are being more lessened every year. However its power still remains. =]

JavaScript security isn't much of an issue in the first place. Most JavaScript is running for the client's use anyway, it's not submitting data to be manipulated by the server. If data is being submitted, it just has to be properly scrubbed first. Security is not a big concern with client-side languages, and JavaScript is not "being constantly CraXed," I don't know where you're getting that impression. There's nothing to hack in the first place.

The burden I'm talking about is the slow loading, the computational overhead on the processor, the lack of keyboard support for things like screen readers, and the lack of accessibility to the actual data for the user. You can manipulate things nicely when it is XHTML, you can't access things as easily with Flash. Sure that means someone has to screencap your images now so that might be a "security" benefit, but that's annoying and you want your users to have access to that data if they want to save it, etc.

Flash is not the only thing to support vector-based image formats, not by a long shot. All of the browsers except IE (last I was aware of) support SVG. I assume IE9 will as well.

The main problem with flash is its lack of accessibility to the user, whether that is being able to manipulate data as they desire or for disabled users to be able to have keyboard access or use a screenreader. If the solution for screenreaders is to provide an alternative XHTML/CSS based page, then <em>why wouldn't you just use that page in the first place?</em> Flash is not providing any benefit over that page other than animations, and that's where it should be used - for those animations.

Flash is never going to take over the backbone of the majority of sites. That's not what it's intended for, and it doesn't work best that way. It's not a legit argument, the vast majority of web developers agree. Flash has its uses; being the backbone of most sites is not one of them. Indeed, as a savvy internet user, I DON'T enjoy using Flash-based sites, they simply feel cumbersome and they limit what you can do with the page. Where Flash shines is in making things prettier, and that's what it should be used for, NOT for fulfilling functionality roles; JavaScript does that much more efficiently because <em>that's its point</em>.

.... it's a flash website
http://galaxytab.samsungmobile.com/
http://www.alienwork.com/

buttons are really annoying as they disappear

and well i can make those things too OLOL it's only a flash file...

Napalm why do you have SOL written in your signature? Lol.