leaving

sorry guys but i m leaving because i cant play with my con good bye

whats a con? BB tweetie...miss u D:

*sigh* bb twettie mate, gl

bb twee :S

its because of his lag...
i made the other topic about it...
no-one could help him
and with his lag he cant play.

i guess this was fate

con = connection come on guys :p BB tweet Ik ga je missen

maybe i m one time on in the 100 years but i dont think that will happen b guys and ATS FOR EVER

common tweets don't let ya crappy internet stop you...respond by fighting along your fanboys!

NOT OUTCAST!!!!!!!!

Awww Tweet... Just because your internet is a noob, it can't stop you... honestly .. please don't go =[

Can't you just buy a new internet box thing? That would make ur ping amazing!!

We know Kernow, "this is the ATS of values, not Outcast."

lol Kernow. Understand:

There is a difference between saying ATS is Outcast and saying ATS is Outcast. I know they sound the same to you, but they're different. A large part of the reason I want to change our name is because almost everyone will hear the same thing, and with good reason; they do indeed sound the same.

There is ATS the structural organization and ATS the idea. Outcast owns ATS the structural organization, and you think only of ATS the idea. The problem with fighting for the three letters "ATS" when you are using the idea is that the idea does not rely on structure. The name is not important to the idea. The name is important to the structure, and that structure still exists in Outcast's ATS. To avoid confusion among the vast majority of players who hear no difference between ATS and ATS - and to cut the connection between ATS the structural organization and ATS the idea - I want to change the name.

Whether he knows it or not, Tweetie was saying "ATS the idea forever!" But there are some people - yourself included, Kernow - who can't or refuse to fully grasp the reality of the separation of the two aspects, and so they still have sentimental attachment to the name, which is only a symbol.

lol nick there is the problem...

when we change the name ppl will think we have new values...
they wont be ready to look on this a little thoughtful. they will just throw it all into one cup.
The ones will see that we maintained the real ats values, and just changed the organisation.
The others will only see a namechange and a different organisation... and then wont even consider that we have the same values, or where they're based on.
and actually no-one will believe anything we say. they see ats is the absuing and banning admin clan which outcast stands for.
but they dont know what is the ideal behind that name, the ideal we still strave for. an ideal outcast doest strave for, which is why this namechange is so sensless and misleading to unthoughtful minds... which makes a high percentage out there... because they dont want to think about this.
they want it obvious.
they way it is now it isnt obvious, 2 clans sharing one name and acting different.
a namechange doesnt bring clarfication because of what i explained, and what kernow explained with so many words and so many arguments. if we change the name only for us, and not as a sign for others, we dont have a clear stand towards the others. we are actually then another bubble, similar to outcasts one. we have to clarify ourselve to the old ats, and with the clear finish of the conflict with the old ats (which is th reason for all the confusion, thats why its so important) we will have taken a clear stand to all the ppl out there.

We cannot only say: we arent anymore what their ats is now, we have to define where the same roots are, where the ways of values and organisation began to differ. whats ours and whats theirs.
we cant deny our connection to them. we have to define its nature and its borders!

My head hurts.

Frankly, both of you are right. There's no intelligence denying either hypothesis for such a matter. It all comes down to how well you communicate your ideas, since you are leader(S!) of this clan, you need to worry about making sure the other members who weren't appointed leaders get your message, it's not about proving either person wrong.

I say this because I want y'all to be friends. Of course you need to keep proving yourselves through words, this is where Outcast fails! So keep debating!

Remember though to keep in touch with the 'center side', please?

~Abrum

At some level I think this just comes down to opinion. I think people understand the different arguments, and regardless of what course we choose it will be OK. I could continue to present counter-arguments, but it seems we are reaching a point of no longer making progress with one another. It seems it's just time to watch the vote.

a vote which fails at the options...

the question should be namechange, with or without contract?

And I am afraid this is the WRONG TOPIC TO BE ARGUING about this.. :/

Indeed, Mereel presents a valid point.

Good luck deciding upon the name change on the other topic, obviously it's won, but of course it isn't over until someone says so with the power to say so.

~Abrum

lol, we will change the name, the question is how we will do it. cleaning up the recent past by negotiating with outcast or just leave the past behind by ignoring outcast and our connection to his ats.

A poll for that would be splendid. Can anyone make polls or only users granted special access?

ATS the idea was the seed, the base foundation, the stump. Irrelvevant into what the seed grows into, wheather a thorn tree or a magnificant ash or a weeping willow, it will always have foundation on the ideas it created. Yes the tree can be pruned and altered, always new shapes take its leaves, but cutting connection of the tree to its stump leaves no acheivement. Only a fallen tree.

................................................................................................

Jerusalem. A city disputed throughout human history in the last 2000 years for its religious and symbolic representation as the spiritual center of Christianity, Judaism and Muslim. my example of of the importance of the name and its reasons for keeping it are in example of the fierce defense of this name by so many varying cultures and peoples.

My example is 1187. The passionate Chrisitan defense against the opposing Arabic forces lead by 'Ṣalāḥ ad-Dīn Yūsuf ibn Ayyūb' - probably western histories most respected oppnents, known for his chilvary and respect for his enemy. Balian of Ibelin was the deputy turned moral King in charge of the cities defense.
As film, book and history dictates to me after much death and slaughter and many days of seiged defense against staggering odds the city remained defended by the christians. The walls were broken but the Saladin was still denied access, after sweat and blood, tears and desperation Saladin conceived to offer terms with Balian. Balian realised that they had defended succesfully and that his opponent was offering terms. Saladin, was fearful of a pyrrhic victory yes, but ultimately was showing his mutual respect.

The two leaders met outside the gates of the great city and discusses as follows:

History: wrote:

Saladin was able to knock down portions of the walls, but was unable to gain entrance to the city. Balian then rode out to meet with the sultan, to report to him that the defenders would rather kill each other and destroy the city than see it taken by force. After negotiations, it was decided that the city would be handed over peacefully, and that Saladin would free seven thousand men for 30000 bezants; two women or ten children would be permitted to take the place of one man for the same price. Balian handed over the keys to the Tower of David...on October 2

Rumoured and depicted in the film release: Bailin turns to Saladin and asked "What is it that is so important about Jerusalem anyway?"

Saladin says "Nothing....." and walks away. But then he stops, turns around and with a gesture of passion and a slight smile says "everything" before continuing back to his army.

To me the name and clan tag of ATS is nothing.......and everything. It is something that you cannot "own" not one that you can "lead" - but it is something I can defend, something I can consider as part of me, and I a part of it. It is nothing but a name i agree, but the significance of that name is in infinate stregnth.
Non-materialistic yes and perhaps the morals can be carried outside of this name. But for me (as John Proctor efficently portrays in Miller's "The Crucible") the name is the soul. It is the essence of our characteristic and the name will always attribute that characteristic, no matter who defends it it will be in the hearts and souls of whoever considers it a part of them.


Now the majority want to move on, abandoning the name that I've stood by for just under 10 months. I ask you this - Does ATS mean more to you than an Outcast? Does it have soul and spirit that one cannot bypass with rule and possesive ownership? If you agree then prove it and keep this beacon of hope called ATS.

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That is no sentimental value.

Xaso references my arguments that I could put another 1000 words towards but yea......no need.