FFA Opinions

Hey All:

I've heard over the last couple months of various discussions happening in SoL about mwheel, kamod, and other "cheats". From my understanding, there were proposals specifically for mwheel to be allowed in SoL, but that those were shot down by... with all due respect... older players of the clan. I wanted to participate in said discussion, but obviously couldn't as I am not in SoL right now, but I've had talks with a few other members, and after seeing the H4ST topic, I simply don't want to remain silent anymore on it. You can feel free to ignore me, as I have literally no power in SoL given I am not in SoL... but SoL will always hold a special place for me, and so if I see something that I feel like hurts my friends in SoL, and hurts the clan as a whole, I'm going to speak up about it

I didn't play the game 10 years ago, so can't speak to absolutely what went down back then, but from what I've heard from many players, it sounds like with an obviously much larger player population, there was a wider range of players and interests... NFers, FFers, FFAers, role players, gun players, etc... In that time, I could see the desire for a clan to set a rule of no cheats of any kind, to ensure that this type of gameplay is being followed on their server. However, such is not the case anymore. You see NFers, and FFAers, and that's about it. People still chat or have fun in other ways, but when you boil it down, those are basically it... so now when you say that you don't allow any kind of cheats, you are blocking off a LARGE population of the game from being able to join your clan. FFA is a "cheating" community. Virtually every player who participates in FFA uses at the very least mwheel, and many players use other game enhancements as well. So to say that in order to join the clan you have to give up all cheats... you are asking any player who wants to join your clan, to knowingly make themselves fight at a disadvantage if they want to be part of your community. Now players might decide that the community is worth that and choose to join anyways, but what does that accomplish? You're ruining their gameplay in the style of the game they most enjoy playing... so that you can feel better about yourself? I totally get not allowing cheats in your clan tournaments so that everyone is on level ground. You might have players in your clan who choose to not use cheats still, and leveling the playing field totally is totally fair for a clan rank tournament. That isn't the case in the FFA world.. which as of now is frankly what the majority of combat in the game is... In a depleting game with less and less players, why would you want to isolate so many players from wanting to join your clan? You had a perfectly nice player in H4ST almost get kicked, or not allowed to join... not because he was a jerk or insulting players... not because he was harassing anyone... but because he wants a fair fight in the style of game he chooses to play. Why would you punish your members for wanting to be in the community, and forcing them to have worse gameplay? I see posts about trying to rebuild your community, which I for one would love to see, but I promise you that with your rules as strict as they are... you are simply isolating players. For my own personal position, I for one (if something ever happened with JiP that it was disbanded or I left) would never rejoin SoL with the current rules as they stand. I love SoL, and I think/hope everyone recognizes that. You're all good-hearted and respectful people who just like to enjoy the game in many different ways... but forcing me, especially as a US player already with a ping disadvantage, to again fight at a disadvantage to the rest of the FFA community is just dumb and unnecessary. I am no different a person because I choose to level the FFA playing field by using mwheel, the same as H4ST is no different a person now that he has agreed to stop. He simply is forced to fight at a disadvantage from now on.

I understand the idea of fair combat that SoL stands for, but I'm sorry that in ffa... that is a thing of the past. If you want to be competitive in FFA, you add enhancements such as mwheel... its why all the best players use at least mwheel, and the best players who don't will never be able to match them. I know SoL is not specifically an FFA clan, but you have members who primarily play FFA... and who knows but if you made your rules less strict on cheats... you might gain new members. Cheats don't make someone any different of a person, and to summarize it all... I think it's silly to reject a perfectly nice player whos looking for a good community, because of them wanting to have fair fights in FFA.

Like I said, I'm not in SoL anymore, and you all might choose to ignore this... which is fine. I just needed to feel like I've done my part to help my friends in SoL, and help what I really think is best for SoL as a clan. Okay enough rambling. I'm happy for a continued discussion if anyone chooses to engage and would love if this sparked more discussion even in member chat if you all feel you wanted to discuss this behind closed doors, but I've done my part

Hope you all are well!

Zelah,

First of all, it's great to see you here, I have missed you

Change has been going around for a couple of months now because we are doing our best to adapt to how the game has evolved these past few years. We know that something has to give in order to get more knowledgeable gentlemen (or women) like yourself in SoL.

The issue here is that the type of people, and this is not meant as any disrespect to you or anyone as like-minded as you, that adhere to mwheel or kamod, or cheats, exhibit a specific type of behavior that is not seen as "SoL material". There is a good portion of players that use these exploits because they are bored, but there is also a portion that uses these same exploits as a means to be dishonest.

SoL members, as part of our new recruitment process, talk very frequently on the forum amongst ourselves about new recruits and I assure you that we very carefully examine each and every recruit. This does not always mean we pick the most skilled, or the most eager, but ultimately the one who will be a bright spot, a positive addition who adds character and integrity to our ranks, much like you have been before

There is a risk associated with inviting those who use exploits to their advantage. The reason that much of the "old guard" is against inviting these players, is because we have been around so damn long, that we have watched many of player enter these forums and it's become easy to identify the good from the bad. I'm not saying that everyone who has used an exploit doesn't get in, but generally if you have a positive attitude and are willing to make a difference here, we'll take a chance and bet on you

Zelah, you have to understand, if it seems like that we are isolating players, it simply isn't true. Not all of us will be around here forever, and the members here are adamant that we should secure our future. Doing so requires that, at our very core, than we remain SoL. More changes could happen in the future as we adapt, but likely what you're suggesting would never come to fruition.

I wasn't around when you left Big Z, and for that I'm very sorry. But don't ever think you're not welcome here because you always will be! I am grateful to you that you wanted to share your thoughts with us all!

Hey Tim always great to talk mate!

I think I agree with the premise of what you're saying. However I don't think that using cheats makes someone have inherently bad character that would lead to them not getting into SoL. Take someone like Czlowiek... perfectly nice guy, just enjoys playing the game, uses mwheel because as an ffa player, that's just what you do now to even the fight... but with how SoL rules currently stand, if czlowiek was truthful in admitting to mwheel on his app, he wouldn't even get a second look because that's against the clan rules. You all have a... let's be honest fairly lengthy recruitment process for a reason, and as you said most people in SoL know the type of person they want to shine in SoL, so my point is that instead of disqualifying a person from joining because they use cheats in ffa, let the recruitment process do its job and judge a player by their character and not by the style of fighting they enjoy.

Z, I totally agree with your points. We don't think ALL people who use cheats have inherently bad character, we're just cautious when it comes to this. Obviously this game has a lengthy history and there is a lot in the past to make some of us feel this way. Some of us are more progressive than others, and are working towards a means to an end.

For example, our lengthy recruitment process has recently been shortened, and we offer more opportunities for our recruits to shorten their road to membership once they are a recruit. We do our best to holistically judge every new recruit, regardless of past transgressions. I think you and I are both a testament to that

I promise you that we all do our best in judging character only, just as it's been for 10 years.

I think you may feel that way Tim, but I heard from several SoL members that in the most recent case of H4ST he was going to be rejected from the clan because he was using cheats regardless of his character and that he's only in SoL because he agreed to stop them... so while you may think that way Tim, SoL as a whole is not acting that way.

Hey Zelah.

You might have a few good points but overall I hace to say I cannot agree to what you are saying.
There are very good reasons why we dont allow CHEATS here.
Its one of our most held dear clan principles.

Just imagine what would actualy happen if we allow ''ffa enhancement'' cheats.
Our server and clan will be flooded with people who take advantage of those cheats and in the end it is not how your jk2 skill evolves but how good you become in putting those scripts to use.
New players will have NO freakin' idea what is happening. And I realy mean like those new players who dont even know how to open the console. They are getting scared of VERY fast and never show up again wich is a loss.
Also many other people including me do not see why using such cheats would make sense in any way. I don't realy feel the urge to play with such people simply because I refuse to alter my gameplay with outside sources. I want to improve in my own way without help of such programs cheats hacks scripts whatever. And I'm not good enougth to hold my own against hardcore FFAers anyway.
I see your argument here Zelah but in my opinion its just huge BS to adapt to cheats. I mean srsly? This game is NOT ment to be played that way and I think I would quit jk2 in general if we would allow it ( and trust me im not the only one in that case ).

It also realy has to do with the personality type as Leo already told. Ofc not all of thes FFAers are bad. But hand on heart and be honest: Most of them are acting in a very very toxic and foul way.
I rarely see anyone saying: Hey mate. Wanna have fun and FFA a bit? NO. Most FFAs are a result of laming and measuring who is better underlined with words like pro, dog, owned, l2p and other very childish ways of communication. ( YES this is a little pass with a rock in direction of your fellow clan members...)

And allowing them in general but not in tournaments would make no sense at all
Everyone would be used to cheating and the results or the tournaments itself ( rank or TT or fun ) would not be interesting at all.

So shortly sayd: In my opinion these cheats are taking away all the fun of this game and ruin the community.
I totaly respect your opinion in that matter but that does not mean that I like or support it

Well, like Xem said, it's the toxicity we're trying to avoid. The first four words on the subheader of this forum (scroll all the way up to see it) reads: "The torch of fair play..". It'd be kind of hypocritical if we decided to screw our own mission statement

The hard truth is this: SoL members pick and choose who our members are, and we reserve that right to do so. The recruitment time may change, but the essence of what it takes to be in SoL won't change.

H4ST is well liked among the members here, despite what happened with hacks. We're giving him a fair shot.

Leonardo wrote:

The hard truth is this: SoL members pick and choose who our members are, and we reserve that right to do so.

Well...this phrasing REALY sounds harsh and a bit arrogant o: ( NO OFFENSE TO YOU ).
Everyone has a fair shot at becoming a member of SoL if the questionaire is postet truthfully and in agreement in what we believe in.
Same with reapplications except Zelah cus he already left for the 10th time ( just kidding mate u are always welcome ).
I honestly vote yes with almost any recruitment poll because personalities can change over time and I'm always in for giving a chance to show that.
If it does not and rules are broken a kick is always an option.
Mine did a great deal of a change. Go back to 2009 where my english was bad and I was a hotheaded youngster with a bad case if attitude and you will laugth.

Well, I DID say it was a HARD truth one could argue that from a certain point of view. I don't believe that deep down, it's just another perspective.

Xemnas wrote:

Hey Zelah.

You might have a few good points but overall I hace to say I cannot agree to what you are saying.
There are very good reasons why we dont allow CHEATS here.
Its one of our most held dear clan principles.

Just imagine what would actualy happen if we allow ''ffa enhancement'' cheats.
Our server and clan will be flooded with people who take advantage of those cheats and in the end it is not how your jk2 skill evolves but how good you become in putting those scripts to use.
New players will have NO freakin' idea what is happening. And I realy mean like those new players who dont even know how to open the console. They are getting scared of VERY fast and never show up again wich is a loss.
Also many other people including me do not see why using such cheats would make sense in any way. I don't realy feel the urge to play with such people simply because I refuse to alter my gameplay with outside sources. I want to improve in my own way without help of such programs cheats hacks scripts whatever. And I'm not good enougth to hold my own against hardcore FFAers anyway.
I see your argument here Zelah but in my opinion its just huge BS to adapt to cheats. I mean srsly? This game is NOT ment to be played that way and I think I would quit jk2 in general if we would allow it ( and trust me im not the only one in that case ).

It also realy has to do with the personality type as Leo already told. Ofc not all of thes FFAers are bad. But hand on heart and be honest: Most of them are acting in a very very toxic and foul way.
I rarely see anyone saying: Hey mate. Wanna have fun and FFA a bit? NO. Most FFAs are a result of laming and measuring who is better underlined with words like pro, dog, owned, l2p and other very childish ways of communication. ( YES this is a little pass with a rock in direction of your fellow clan members...)

And allowing them in general but not in tournaments would make no sense at all
Everyone would be used to cheating and the results or the tournaments itself ( rank or TT or fun ) would not be interesting at all.

So shortly sayd: In my opinion these cheats are taking away all the fun of this game and ruin the community.
I totaly respect your opinion in that matter but that does not mean that I like or support it

I mean your server is already flooded with people who use these cheats as the majority of players now use them. I'm sorry but saying new players cant use them is not a good reason to not allow someone in your clan to use mwheel, because if a player doesn't know how to open the console, they certainly don't know how to kick, fight, do special moves, or any kind of stuff. The simple mwheel command could be taught to the new players as well as any of those other commands.

Saying that just because you don't want to use mwheel means that the clan should disallow members from using it, and rejecting applicants who do use it, is no offense... a really selfish way of looking at it. If I was in SoL and used mwheel to fight in the ffa circles, but didn't use it against you in SoL rank tournaments, that would literally not change your gameplay at all. Me using mwheel has no effect on you. Of course there will always be SoL members who prefer to use spacebar (or whatever key they bind kick to) in order to kick, and that's why I said banning enhancements in official SoL tournaments makes perfect sense to fair play. Blocking someone like Joeker from using enhancements when he's fighting other ffa players who are using them, is just forcing him to fight at a disadvantage, and therefore you are accomplishing the exact opposite of your goal in "fair play."

Again, using cheats does not make someone a "toxic" player, the same way as not using cheats does not make someone a nice person. Your clan is not going to get flooded with toxic people if you suddenly allowed enhancements, because you all know what type of person you want in SoL. There are far more "non-toxic" players using cheats than there are "toxic" players. I literally never see almost any SoL players on any server besides SoL, so I'm not sure why you think you have the evidence to support your claim that most ffaers are toxic anyways.

Wanting to improve is a good thing, but there is nothing wrong with evening the score to make a fair fight. Virtually all of the ffa community at the very least uses mwheel. If the original game was made with mwheel as the standard kick, nobody would have a problem with it. The game is adapting to where in ffa circles, mwheel is simply the standard kick.

So saying that the clan does not want to cheat is a selfish way of looking at things?
No man.
When you come into my house and I tell you to take your damn shoes off you dont get to say im being selfish
There is no disadvantage to anyone on our server because cheats are not allowed in general.
That about toxic players was a bit off topic sorry.

Lets just take a look at the word ''cheat''.
To practise fraud or trickery, violate rules dishonestly and just simply being UNFAIR.
The direct german translation would be: Betrug. Schwindel. And those words are not good.

Aside from the definiton of the word lets jump to gaming.
A cheat is the possibility to influence a game in a way to obtain an advantage or play the game in a way wich WAS NOT INTENDED to be.
Its simply unnatural.

And just because a majority of a faction in this community started using these cheats does not mean that its rightful in any way.

Just because many people start killing each other or robbing a bank ect. does not mean that its legal or the right thing to do.
There is a moral here wich we are trying to protect.
We had enougth trouble with ATS in that matter ( wich was more a political issue ) and we don't want that to happen again.

To put it into star wars nerd terms: These cheats would be the fast and easy way. Fast and easy are things a Jedi does not strive forward to. Its the lure of the dark side

We have been through this topic multiple times over the years. The clan and non public section are filled with it. So what exactly is your point? Do you want to be allowed to use cheats with SoL? You wrote above that you would never join SoL again with the standing rules?
What happened? You were part of this clan and you had no problem whatsoever with not using cheats.

Anyway I'm realy tired of the same old cheating discussion...the day SoL allows cheats is the day where our torch goes out. So: not gonna happen

Still not the correct way of looking at it, because you don't play FFA, which is totally fine, but therefore allowing someone like Jim to use mwheel has literally no effect on you. It's not you disallowing Jim to wear shoes in your house which would effect you as you would have to clean up the mess... it's not allowing Jim to wear shoes anywhere, while the rest of society constantly wears shoes. SoL cannot say they don't allow cheats on their server because that is NEVER enforced. I use mwheel constantly and I'm not getting kicked off the server. Other friends of SoL use EVC constantly and they're not getting kicked off the server. SoL has never upheld the idea of a cheat free server, but you just force the ffa players of your clan to fight at a disadvantage.

I use the word cheat for discussion purposes because I know that's how SoL currently views them. However I say again if everyone uses mwheel, then it's not cheating to use mwheel... it's the standard way of playing FFA. We're not talking about killing or robbing a bank.. we're talking about playing a game. If I was trying to convince SoL to allow cheats/enhancements in a time when few other players were using it, than you could call it cheating and I'd understand why you're against it... but that's not the case at all. Players like Joeker, Jim, now H4ST are simply forced to fight at a disadvantage to the rest of the community. It's easy to say you want to get better naturally, but when one way of kicking is simply better, there's no way to train being better than the best player at using mwheel, because it is simply a superior way of kicking.

I'm not asking SoL to compromise their morals. SoL stands for fair play, something I also agree with which is why in the past I always argued against "cheats." However being out of SoL into the rest of the community opened my eyes that SoL isn't promoting fair play by not allowing their members to use mwheel, they are just hurting their own members. I said I wouldn't rejoin SoL without a rule change to make a point. I love SoL and it's members, but I would not go back to fighting at a constant disadvantage to virtually every other player. It's not fair fighting... and it's just aggravating to know that other players have the advantage over you for no other reason than they play the game normally. I love SoL but I am very happy in JiP right now, so my only interest in this topic is because I hear my friends in SoL frustrated about this rule, and I care enough about them and SoL in general to fight for something that while I know is an unpopular idea, is simply the right thing to do to allow your FFA members to stand a fair chance in fights.

This gets frustrating for me as well.
It feels like talking to a wall.

Im repeating myself:
A cheat is the possibility to influence a game in a way to obtain an advantage or play the game in a way wich WAS NOT INTENDED to be.
Its simply unnatural.

Call me stubborn but Its just WRONG. It is wrong even if many people use these.
I HIGHLY doubt that Raven Software and Vicarious Visions intendet the ability to do kicks in such a way.

Its not easy to keep the rule in check as you are well aware of.
Im no pro in detecting if someone uses mwheel or not as I simply never used it myself so its hard to see.
And I truly hope that you dont use it on our server o:

Anyway. I have taken this topic to discussion in the member section. Lets see how all the others think.

Of course I use it lol... basically every ffa player does. SoL has never enforced a no cheats policy for other players because quite frankly it would kill most activity on your server. If they didn't intend mwheel to ever be used for kicks, than they wouldn't have made it something you can easily bind from the console in game. Nobody is trying to force you personally to use mwheel. If you feel so strongly about it, than by all means hold your ground in not using it... but ask yourself why you are trying to control others using it. If it is because as you say you are trying to promote fair play, I'm sorry but you are failing miserably at that. You're never going to be able to control what players outside your clan do and blocking your clan from using it just makes them fight at a disadvantage, the very opposite of fair play.

Im not trying to controll anyone.
I simply represent the choice the clan as a whole and try to fulfill my duties as admin.
My personal own opinion matters little in this whole picture.

Zelah wrote:

If they didn't intend mwheel to ever be used for kicks, than they wouldn't have made it something you can easily bind from the console in game.

What exactly do you bind in console? +moveup is the basic code for jumping thats on spacebar on default. Whenever I /bind mwheelup/mwheedown +moveup it doesnt work for me.
Still: if they intended to have you kick using mwheel instead of double tapping anything, they would have had in on mwheel for default. Mwheel kicking is as good as any ks, if not better, since it can be used even more flexible (depending on what you actually bound to mwheelup).

For me, ks starts when you strip kicking down from a key-combo that requires timing and speed, to a single key stroke - may it be mwheel or any other ks.

I have seen manta setting jump onto mwheel and he kicked a wall on a video for me. I never got it to work - so i dont fully understand the game techniques behind it. But if a "legitimate" kicking via mwheel is only accessible to a few, it's an unfair advantage to me after all. I don't know why this has to be discussed over and over again. I have no problems if you wanna cheat. Go and cheat as much as you want, if you have fun with it. But why would you wanna argue, that a cheat is not a cheat?! (not aiming at you Zelah, i'm generally speaking )

My bind is /bind mwheelup moveup; wait 2; movedown; wait 2, or something really close to that. I'm on mobile still as I'm moving irl so I can't check in game to see exactly what it is. There's more to it than just double tapping space bar, I'll give you that, but it doesn't auto kick for me. I still have to use correct timing. It's just easier than double tapping. It was a really easy console command that could easily be explained to a new player the same as we've all spent time explaining how to double tap kick.

I don't take any of it personally for something like this the same as I'm not targeting anyone personally so no worries about that. To me cheating is using an unfair advantage that others can't have. If everyone is using mwheel, than to me that's no longer a cheat. If only 1 person knew how to do mwheel and used it, then I would see it as cheating. I genuinely don't understand why SoL thinks it is only accessible to a few. It's a console command that requires no download or anything out of game, and most players are already using it. My only interest here are my friends in SoL expressing frustration that they are forced to play at a disadvantage to other players. The game is adapting and even if we wanted to, we're never gonna get players to go back and just use double tap space bar, but we can stop making players fight at that disadvantage if they choose to do so. I don't think players should have to choose between enjoying a fair ffa fight, and playing in a community of friends they enjoy.

Zelah wrote:

My bind is /bind mwheelup moveup; wait 2; movedown; wait 2, or something really close to that.

That's what I thought, and that's what makes it a script for me. It's binding several commands to one key, that cannot be executed by a human being manually. You are basically binding a bunny-hop to one key. That is: jump up for 2 time-units, then stop jumping. I've fiddled around with the wait commands for quite some time, and I am not sure what the time-units are that are used for the wait command. I suspect it means frames, because the time-units seem significantly longer, if your FPS are low, and significantly shorter, if your FPS are high. That means: if I cap my FPS at 80, I can use an mwheel and it rarely does more than 20 dmg. If I cap it at 125, I do 21 and 22 dmg regularly. If I cap it lower than 80, I can range it between 18-20 as if it was a normal kick - all while I use wait 2.
If my assumption is correct, and you play at 125 fps, that means wait 2 would mean 2/125 of a second, that is 0.016 seconds. That is inhuman time. Even if I am wrong, and it's not that short, it is still inhuman. The other inhuman part is, that it is the same length of jumping (+moveup) with everytime you use the command. There is no human contingency. My basic problem with it however is, that you have bound 3 separate commands to one key, that you haven't manually applied (because you can't) - and you used it for combat. Now try binding +moveup;wait 2;-moveup to your spacebar or even mouse keys: you will have a hard time kicking. It's solely designed to work with a mousewheel.

Zelah wrote:

If everyone is using mwheel, than to me that's no longer a cheat.

I see the argument and I cannot argue against it. But it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. Everyone fighting with sticks, is already bad. Everyone fighting with guns, is worse. Everyone fighting with nuclear bombs is worst. You can call it fair. But that's only weaponry. If everyone is robbing, blackmailing or raping everyone else, it's fair game as well. But it's not a kind of fairness I want to be part of. I know, those kinds of comparisons are scorned by many who deem it fine to use mwheel. But I personally feel like a dirty robber when I use mwheel. If you don't feel that way, then you're lucky.

Your description sounds accurate (I don't know enough about it to confirm or speak against it) which is why I can understand why it leaves a bad taste, especially in people who have played many more years than me and the more recent players. But I think for me I look at playing the game for fun, and I think it is more fun to play in a fair fight, than be worried about what was in the base game or not. And I know the FFA population of SoL feels the same in my conversations with them. My goal isn't to convince anyone to use mwheel if you don't want to, but I don't want to see players continue to get more and more frustrated with the rule. I'm hoping that the members will speak up in the member topic because I consider starting this topic my part in being a good friend, but not being in SoL that's as far as I can go.

I completely understand your point. I see that SoL members are being frustrated when they are forced to fight against ks-users. I myself was frustrated and it was the main reason why I didn't want to continue playing CTF, even though I love that gamemode. In the end I stopped playing at all. Starting to use cheats was never a way for me.

I can assure u zelah you're not the only one who thinks this way. My post on other topic....

I'm going to fix this stupid debate once and for all now it get's me mad seeing it.

A game came out in 1997 or whatever called Quake 3, new engine allowed something called strafing but was a massive glitch in the games code. It's now 20 years or whatever later and we all strafe in jk2 which uses the quake 3 engine.

Now you probably thinking what's the point bringing this up. One word really, glitches. Mwheel kicking is a glitch in the games code as I see it. You go to controls>movement>jump>roll your mouse down and u got a mwheel kick. you dont need some stupid wait command to do it, just get a different mouse instead of being ignorant and testing just 1 and saying it dont work.

My argument here is, if we don't allow mwheel why do we allow strafing? You cannot deny this, no scripts and pk3s are needed, just something called a mouse wheel... My work here is done argue as much as u like but its pointless, mwheel is a glitch not a cheat. If this doesn't convince u I hope u ban strafing as well as it gives older players an unfair advantages to newer sol players. good day.

mwheel has never worked for me on the 4 mice I've tried it on. I believe others when they say it does work for them. But clearly it only works for some hardware and not for other hardware.

The reasoning people give for wanting to allow it is that mwheel makes them more competitive against others who also use mwheel or scripts. I believe them when they say mwheel is more effective for kicks, but I can't test it myself because it doesn't work for me.

So mwheel gives an advantage, and not everyone has the potential to do it. If I'm part of a group that champions fair play (SoL), I'm probably voting against mwheel because it creates an unfair playing field. Of course there are people who use those things outside of SoL, and so there is already an unfair playing field. That is the entire point of being in a group of people who reject those things.

As an analogy, you join an organization to protect the environment of Earth because there are people who are damaging the environment through pollution. Protecting the environment of Earth requires laws and regulation, and in the short term it makes you less competitive in a global economy where other nations are NOT trying to limit their carbon emissions. But you do it anyways, because protecting the environment of Earth is important to you.

Maybe other people don't believe the environment of Earth is actually being damaged. Maybe the climate is just changing as part of a cycle, and our lives will be different, but not worse. As human beings they're free to have that opinion, I guess. If they truly believe that, then I can see why they wouldn't want environmental regulation because it makes their nation less competitive in the global economy.

I originally joined ATS because fair play was important to me. Over the years I have been mildly frustrated by playing against people with cheats or scripts, but it never made me angry in a way that made me search for a way to even the playing field quickly. If something ever seemed vaguely cheat-like and its purpose was purely to gain a competitive edge, it has just never interested me in the slightest. (Now gameplay bugs with weird effects are a different story, because a lot of those are fun!)

So that's the backstory on my feelings. But here's my main feeling:

There are countless clans and guilds that have allowed mwheel and scripting, and some that even allow blatant cheats. There are very few that disallow all of them. If you care more about becoming competitive with the modern FFA scene than you do about philosophizing over what is a fundamentally fair way of playing the game, why choose SoL? You could change the rules of SoL and allow scripting, but then you destroy one of the last spaces that aims to create a script-free environment. What's the point of that? It seems tragic to change this fundamental part of our clan just because it makes you more competitive in FFA.

And now for the maybe surprising part. I don't actually feel very strongly about mwheel. The main reason is that if I tried to set it in the options menu and it worked for me, I'd be shocked that other people considered it a cheat. I'd probably feel like it's their fault for not buying hardware that allows that advantage. And so I don't feel too strongly about mwheel, because I'm sure the people who use mwheel didn't go into it feeling like they were being sneaky. They're just trying to make their controls more comfortable.

But it doesn't change the fact that mwheel gives an advantage according to people who use it, and so I'd still rather people chose not to use it because it doesn't work on many mice, as far as we know. If I play against someone who uses mwheel, I won't consider the fight fair. Neither should they.

But SoL is a democracy, so if you want to change the rules, anyone is free to try to convince a majority to vote in favor of the change. Historically, rejecting cheats is something I considered a fundamental core value of SoL that would never change, but it's not nearly as important as democracy. If the younger generation doesn't care about mwheel, vote to change it. But respect the right of the less active older members to also vote against it; you knew when you joined that these things were not allowed, but you still chose to join this unique place among the many other clans that allow mwheel, scripting, or cheats. Understand that the old people have only one home to come back to, and if they can't recognize it when they return, they're probably dead for good.

Thank you Nick. You perfectly described what I'm trying to say.
There is still a little language barrier even though my english is not that bad I guess.

NickdeClaw wrote:

mwheel has never worked for me on the 4 mice I've tried it on. I believe others when they say it does work for them. But clearly it only works for some hardware and not for other hardware.

The reasoning people give for wanting to allow it is that mwheel makes them more competitive against others who also use mwheel or scripts. I believe them when they say mwheel is more effective for kicks, but I can't test it myself because it doesn't work for me.

So mwheel gives an advantage, and not everyone has the potential to do it. If I'm part of a group that champions fair play (SoL), I'm probably voting against mwheel because it creates an unfair playing field. Of course there are people who use those things outside of SoL, and so there is already an unfair playing field. That is the entire point of being in a group of people who reject those things.

As an analogy, you join an organization to protect the environment of Earth because there are people who are damaging the environment through pollution. Protecting the environment of Earth requires laws and regulation, and in the short term it makes you less competitive in a global economy where other nations are NOT trying to limit their carbon emissions. But you do it anyways, because protecting the environment of Earth is important to you.

Maybe other people don't believe the environment of Earth is actually being damaged. Maybe the climate is just changing as part of a cycle, and our lives will be different, but not worse. As human beings they're free to have that opinion, I guess. If they truly believe that, then I can see why they wouldn't want environmental regulation because it makes their nation less competitive in the global economy.

I originally joined ATS because fair play was important to me. Over the years I have been mildly frustrated by playing against people with cheats or scripts, but it never made me angry in a way that made me search for a way to even the playing field quickly. If something ever seemed vaguely cheat-like and its purpose was purely to gain a competitive edge, it has just never interested me in the slightest. (Now gameplay bugs with weird effects are a different story, because a lot of those are fun!)

So that's the backstory on my feelings. But here's my main feeling:

There are countless clans and guilds that have allowed mwheel and scripting, and some that even allow blatant cheats. There are very few that disallow all of them. If you care more about becoming competitive with the modern FFA scene than you do about philosophizing over what is a fundamentally fair way of playing the game, why choose SoL? You could change the rules of SoL and allow scripting, but then you destroy one of the last spaces that aims to create a script-free environment. What's the point of that? It seems tragic to change this fundamental part of our clan just because it makes you more competitive in FFA.

And now for the maybe surprising part. I don't actually feel very strongly about mwheel. The main reason is that if I tried to set it in the options menu and it worked for me, I'd be shocked that other people considered it a cheat. I'd probably feel like it's their fault for not buying hardware that allows that advantage. And so I don't feel too strongly about mwheel, because I'm sure the people who use mwheel didn't go into it feeling like they were being sneaky. They're just trying to make their controls more comfortable.

But it doesn't change the fact that mwheel gives an advantage according to people who use it, and so I'd still rather people chose not to use it because it doesn't work on many mice, as far as we know. If I play against someone who uses mwheel, I won't consider the fight fair. Neither should they.

But SoL is a democracy, so if you want to change the rules, anyone is free to try to convince a majority to vote in favor of the change. Historically, rejecting cheats is something I considered a fundamental core value of SoL that would never change, but it's not nearly as important as democracy. If the younger generation doesn't care about mwheel, vote to change it. But respect the right of the less active older members to also vote against it; you knew when you joined that these things were not allowed, but you still chose to join this unique place among the many other clans that allow mwheel, scripting, or cheats. Understand that the old people have only one home to come back to, and if they can't recognize it when they return, they're probably dead for good.

^This! 100% This.