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 outcast's final mod

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Abrum



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PostSubject: outcast's final mod   Sun 17 Jan 2010, 2:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

Editors Note: Here is a link to a video of what Abrum had done to Outcast's ATS server, taken by Blackwolf: http://www.xfire.com/video/1edfe4/

HURRY UP AND GET ON HIS SERVER! THIS MOD IS FOR DEMOCRACY! EQUALITY! I have uploaded it!
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BlueNinja
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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Thu 21 Jan 2010, 1:21 pm

Grimlore wrote:
@phoenix dude a double post only happens if you post again after posting once

omfg no shit, its the repetition of posts that pisses us off.
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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Thu 21 Jan 2010, 1:42 pm

Abrum I think you forgot that I DID had a talk with him. I tried to talk to him. I tried to REASON with him. But all he did was show how immature he wanted to be about it. He wanted power and total control over the clan, and he took advantage of Nick going on vacation (this was when he was skiing), and then he pounced. He tried to get full control over everything. I tried to talk to him. I thought me and Nick convinced him that we want him here, but under a different system. He was ok with it at first. But now he is just a greedy fool.


I actually like Maxi more than Outcast. Cause Maxi is more understanding. But he is still as stubborn and thickheaded as Outcast. And I disagree with the system they wanted. I do remember a time when ATS was more a council and a CLAN than a dictatorship. Nelson disappeared, H2o had some medical problems, Huracan doesn't play much, Gich shows up every so often, Roy comes on once every blue moon, same with Guardian Luke, X-Jedi got exiled for stupid reasons, Blademaster left cause he made a mistake (when Herny made just as big as a mistake and Blade got yelled at, but Herny didn't til later -.-), Lusant left cause of me (and cause he thought Outcast was turning into a dickhead), and Maxi is not on alot. Who was left on the council? Well, you can count me, Hektor, and Nick, but who was left of the original ATS? Outcast. He had solo power. And he went greedy in power.

Me and Nick tried to explain and talk to Outcast. But he talked to us like little kids who have no idea how to play a game. How we don't know how to run a clan.

Now lets look at this: Nick has been in jk2 since the BEGINNING. Outcast came LATER, and tried to join oB. This wasn't in the beginning. This was a bit later.
So Nick should have the time experience with him
I have lead up to 5-6 clans. I created 2 of them, and 1 of them I was proud of. I am currently in a different clan (on a different game: Halo 3), and I may not lead it, but I am an ambassador to the clan. Meaning I am the one to talk to clans, and be the voice of my clan (kinda xD). So does that mean I got more leading experience than Outcast? Well likes look at this the simple way:

Time and knowledge experience:

NickdeClaw > Outcast

Leadership and Clan relationship experience:

Mereel (me) > Outcast

Friendships, fun, and good relationship with clan mates:

Kernow, Hektor, Mereel, NickdeClaw > Outcast

A basic structure to any good clan is based on a few things.
1)Relationship of leader with clanmates: how well you get along, who is your friend, who is someone you can trust fully, someone you get along with.
2) Structure of leadership: Now I will say a dictatorship is not total shit. Most clans I come across that rely on 1 leader have been good, but usually those clans have no ranks, no council, no special privileges. They just have a leader to be the voice of the clan. But if you don't have this, then it is best to have leaders (or council) who you KNOW can make the right choices, and who can be active and caring.
3) Knowledge: Yes knowledge is a great thing. It is always good to know your enemies, your allies, and the general players of a game. It is also good to know the points of a game, and to remember, that it is just a game. But it is best not to let things get PERSONAL (stares hard at Outcast). Any knowledge can be gained through a wanting to learn, or time.

And finally:
4) Brotherhood: The clan must be a fine working machine. If you open up the hood of your car, you will see that it is a fine tuned machine built with 1 purpose. To get you to places. But how does a machine work? They work together to this common goal. 1 piece isn't independent. They all have a purpose, and must work together in order to work. If a piece does not work, the whole machine can't work. You must build your clan with friends and pals that will work TOGETHER in a way of a family.

I do like Maximus, but I don't think he will make the right choices. I do not trust Outcast, cause he has proven himself to be untrustworthy, plays on peoples feelings and wants, and to me, talks alot of shit that he has no right to say. But I will not trash them further. How they want to do things is up to them. But they have no control over me. No matter what I do (like lag the server), if I can admit my mistakes and move on, that makes me the better man. I have moved on. But Maximus and Outcast will not.

This is MY 2 cents....

~Mereel

P.S. Hopefully this will explain my feelings, and I probably won't post in topics like this ever again.


Last edited by mereel on Thu 21 Jan 2010, 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Thu 21 Jan 2010, 1:49 pm

I agree, Maximus was always the better person, but now he is extremely thickheaded (not thinkheaded mereel xD he isn't thinking at all) and has blinders on. I've never ever liked Outcast, which shows how much he knows about leadership. A leader should be a friend of everyone so he knows what to do and how to deal with things. Anyways, Mereel covered most of what I was thinking about, only he organized it better.
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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Thu 21 Jan 2010, 2:05 pm

Cool, if that's ur decision, I wont challenge it like Max does lol.
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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Thu 21 Jan 2010, 3:25 pm

Abrum wrote:
Why don't you show loyalty once more to what what good in that clan, which was under their leadership at the time. Why don't you talk to them as a friend, forget anything anyone has said to you, I found it enlightening to talk to Max, even on/after that night. Max gives out insults to those who listen to their friends just because they are your friends. There must be reasoning seen by the people for the people, he doesn't just want to order you around. He challenges you to think for yourself, you use his challenge (being called kid) as a reason to desert him. Outcast made some mistakes, to me Max admits to making mistakes himself, perhaps there is more the meets the grouped eye.

My 2 cents, humbly,
-Abrum

P.S. I believe much in what I have just said.
Abrum I strongly understand the desire to remain loyal to people who have good intentions. I have always said that Outcast [and now] Maximus are good guys, and that I simply disagree with their methods for administration. Any group of people is bound to have disagreements, but the massive scale of the disagreements encountered in the 1-2 years leading up to Outcast's "leaving" ATS is simply staggering for a game like JK2. I firmly believe that a large part of the problem is the language barrier, but in my attempts to communicate with Outcast I often edited my messages to contain unambiguous words and double-translated my messages (English->Spanish->English) and found them to be quite clear, and still it led to the same conclusion: Outcast makes powerful claims with nothing to back them up. The reasons for his decisions were always "above me," or I "didn't need to know the details," and in famous Outcast style he would flat out say "I don't bother with the details. My vision is clear and I make the correct judgement." He ruled absolutely and declared his decisions righteous, yet with no reasons to ever back his decisions. He told us that he is the one with administrative experience, and that we "shouldn't worry about it." He'll take care of it. In the context of his role in JK2, he literally viewed himself as never being wrong. This is not an overstatement, the persona he projected in ATS never once hinted that he had made a mistake, although I can't imagine a person in real-life with at least gradeschool-level analytical skill who could possibly make the arbitrary judgements he made and not be at least somewhat unsure of themselves, so maybe this is just an act he puts on because he believes that a strong central Administrator is necessary to maintain a clan. I disagree in his definition of strength. Back on topic: If an obvious mistake was made, instead of correcting it, he cemented that decisions as the new "good." We saw this time and time again with bans. There were instances where someone had done nothing wrong, but Outcast happened to be frustrated with them and banned them. When confronted about the ban, instead of admitting to being human and having made a mistake, he would once again tell us that we "didn't know all the details" (and once again he would provide none of those details), and instead of correcting the situation and unbanning the innocent player, that player would now become exiled and perma-banned from the server, because Outcast had already ruled that he should be banned; what more evidence should the rest of us need than Outcast's word?

The parallels to the real world from this type of system and this type of political/administrative persona are so obvious it's painful to hear others deny them. The old ATS was a dictatorship, pure and simple. As in any dictatorship, the dictator dealt out powers to various people he trusted, but even a clan-wide opinion on an issue was irrelevant in the face of the dictator's judgement. This is not what any of us signed up for when we joined the JK2 clan that was supposed to be about fair play, respect, and friendship. Sure we expected there to be a power structure with Outcast at the top. But we expected a power structure, one where the top of the structure is supported by the foundation. What we failed to realize was that Outcast was not the top of a structure; he was God sitting on his cloud, viewing the mortals below.

In a comical, albeit admittedly unforeseen grasp at argument, the individuals loyal to the old ATS have claimed that "ATS is not ours," which directly implies that someone does indeed "own" ATS, even though there is absolutely nothing to own. A JK2 clan is not an object, it is not a recognized legal entity with an owner, it's not even something officially recognized through JK2. It's a community, and nothing more. And people claim membership to that community by including text characters somewhere in or around their screen name in an online game. Members voluntarily create other resources for their fellow members to access, such as the forums. There is only one thing that connects the ATS forums, server, and clan tag: the people who are members of it. Any existence of a literal connection and whole entity are completely mental social constructs of reality within the viewpoint of the individuals who comprise the whole. Simply put, ATS is a clan because of its members. Without its members, it would not continue to exist "unclaimed"; there is nothing that exists to claim except in the social construct its members have created.

But perhaps all concerned already know the tale of Outcast and the meaning of a clan, or are at least aware that this is a belief held by many of us. It doesn't matter whether you agree fully with the statements I've made up to this point, it's now time for pure, simple logic that undermines all credibility to which a would-be dictator makes claim.

Proponents of a monarchy point to the strength of unity that a single leader provides to an otherwise loosely associated group, such as in a clan for a game. This suggests that the members are benefiting from the single leader's authority and perhaps zeal. This also implies that there is a benevolence in the assumed authority of the single leader; he or she is doing work and making decisions that further the goals of his or her people. If the leader is making some decisions that harm the community, the community may voice its concern over individual issues. More drastically, if the leader is causing more harm to the community than good - and the community recognizes this - they will no longer wish to be ruled by this single ruler. If the single leader refuses to relent or relinquish power in the face of opposition from the very constituent members that contribute to provide that power and authority, he or she is no longer acting with benevolence to further the goals of his or her people. Instead of bringing order and improvement, the leader is bringing chaos and degradation. This leader can no longer claim to act for the good of the community, because what is good for the community is determined by the community; like all reasoning entities, the community always acts in what it perceives to be its best interest. "Good" and "bad" are not absolutes. What one person deems "good" another person may deem "bad." Withholding the impossible-to-prove existence of a deity, this means that there is no such thing as "good" and "bad," and that they are relative concepts that reasoning entities assign to various things they encounter. This is the only context in which "good" and "bad" can be said to exist, and like the "existence" of a clan I noted earlier, it is simply a mental social construction. Essentially, what is good or bad for a person is determined by what that person believes is good or bad for him or her. Like all reasoning entities, a leader is always acting for the good of the leader. It may so happen that what is good for the leader also overlaps with what is good for the community which he or she leads. (For example, a leader may choose to lead and contribute because he or she gets enjoyment out of helping others.) However, a leader trying to lead for the good of the community, but who instead causes harm to the community (as defined by the community) is not truly acting for the good of the community, since what is "good" for the community only exists in the definition that the community itself defines. When what is good for the leader no longer overlaps with what is good for the community, the only thing that is left is "what is good for the leader." It is at this point that claims - such as the one Mereel made - that the leader simply desires power are substantiated. And here is the reason: If a benevolent leader sees that he is causing distress to those he leads, he will relinquish his leadership so that the community can better prosper.

What is the easiest way to remedy the great potential for this problem?

Elections.

There is no need for rulers to feel guilty about whether or not they are benevolent in this system. A member can still like another member even if he or she does not want to be led by that member.

It is not that we do not listen to Max. We simply disagree with him. If you talk to Max and
Abrum wrote:
...forget anything anyone has said to you...
then what he says probably sounds pretty good, since the only arguments you are considering are your own and Max's. It is necessary to listen to everyone, and not to be afraid of adopting an idea just because it is not your own, as Xasomur's signature wisely states. That being said, speaking for myself, I have listened to the various arguments - including those from Max - and I find that the arguments embodied by this ATS are overwhelmingly more convincing.
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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Fri 22 Jan 2010, 1:15 am

Waaw... I actually read all of that xD

If only Outcast and Max would get some sense and try to find this and read it, but they would probably be no less stubborn. Anyways, Outcast is the only forum admin for his forum and the last time he was on that forum was January 6th... lol all that trouble for nothing @Outcast.
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Fri 22 Jan 2010, 5:05 am

im glad that mereel and nick answered...
1. i have exams ^^
2. i would have wrote longer posts O.o
no joke!

but let me include a lil personal aspect, a little similar to what mereel did. but i dont mean it such exemplary.

I have an opinion.
It is reasoned.
There are few ppl only not accepting it, because its from me, who isnt here since 4 years.
(I feel pissed ^^)
But actually im not here for those ppl.
I am here for values and friends (friends because we share values)
Those ppl at the top, ignoring me, doesnt represent the values.
the values start to represent them
I just want to save the Clan, by saving there values and the ppl representing it. (and i am not alone btw)
This leads me to my first point, because that is my opinion...
and its reasoned...

so... if you agree with leader=personification of the clan, u may still talk to max and outcast, who ignore the rest...
but as soon as u figured out, that a clan is not its leader... u will finally have to see that you cant let those ppl lead ats.

and btw its funny... outcast himself says, that a clan is more than its server and its forum, that it is its order...
well basically he talks in empty phrases, which contradict as soon as u try to give them any content...
u just cant make them fit in any sense of words :S
they dont built such a nice cycle as my do... ^^
only this: Outcast is ATS. and ATS is Outcast (in a nutshell xD)

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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Fri 22 Jan 2010, 7:20 am

Everyone is opinionated. I have said that argument and debate with reasoned and intellectual challenge are what found my belief, and my allegance lies to the majority because i believe in members and morals embody the clan. Xaso is right - Outcast/Max don't define the morals, rather the morals define them.

Abrum: "I have followed my heart in this little post, I dare you to do the same. Sometimes one must look to a foreign land to find what question he seeks, the answer can only be found by this person alone."

I think you mean here that you pretended to join both factions of ATS in order to gain a more enlightened perspective (subliminal messaging), i cannot see a reason you would've found there that wasn't intellectually and thereotically crushed by Nick, Mereel or Xaso here. Maybe it is a question here of reason versus faith, but you Abrum have known the many perspectives, and if you read and consider Nick's post then i would like to see a challenging response from them.

There never will be. 1. They feel themselves above our 'common' debates. 2. Unlike us they never open to our side of the story.

Abrum you say to open to other sides ideologies. We have done this and just belief it to be wrong. Have you not noticed that Max and Outcast only respect you when you're playing the listening/obediant card? It is them who never open their minds to the more political and argumentitive viewpoints.

I can plainly see we have the moral highground here. One day Outcast will realise that he was out-done here. One day......

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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Fri 22 Jan 2010, 8:58 am

Fuck that, says I. I have seen both sides, I have been really pissed about all this. When I don't think about it I see what I value in a JK2 Clan, peace and something to work towards, even if Max and Out make mistakes, they have values that I aspire to. While Nick and Xaso are good at this shit that I hate and are skilled in other ways... They will never be friends to me as closely as Max. They call him Papi for a reason, he's like a dad to some people, to some perhaps not, is that the problem here? I've wanted a dad for a while, not to be led by other people like me. I''m defending him, be it in illusion or reality, he is very nice to me. If he has problems - I will try to help him. I'm fed up with these insults, please remove my maps, perhaps they will return once again. In a world of ups'n'downs, maybe Max is using me, but if that is true, it wont be for long. Stop insulting what you don't know for sure, right?


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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Fri 22 Jan 2010, 9:02 am

which morals are there?
ignoring their own members as soon as they arent a great modder?

and idk if it was max or outcast saying, that you shouldn't just follow your friends, but take the right decision...

maybe take that value of them Smile

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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Fri 22 Jan 2010, 9:07 am

Leave it alone, re-read my post, I editd it.
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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Fri 22 Jan 2010, 9:09 am

Please re-read my post, I added more.
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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Fri 22 Jan 2010, 9:12 am

Edited last post.
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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Fri 22 Jan 2010, 9:13 am

ok, we will get away the mods, as we promiced

i only ask, what else we need to do, that ppl see, that we know that FOR SURE... ^^
we posted the scars we have of him... what else do you need?

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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Fri 22 Jan 2010, 9:13 am

Lol, Maximus is a really nice guy, and I had the same relations with him and opinion towards him as you do Abrum, but just because he is a nice guy doesn't mean he is thinking clearly. Those two things have nothing to do with each other.
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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Fri 22 Jan 2010, 1:46 pm

Sorry for triple post lol! My workout-computer isn't the best.
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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Fri 22 Jan 2010, 3:16 pm

Abrum the domestic and political should never be interwined. If you want proof just look at the reign of the English King 'Edward II'. (Or Marlowe's play about him) or Thomas Kyd's 'Spanish Tragedy' if you want it Espanol style (which suits you i think xD).

Abrum wrote:
even if Max and Out make mistakes, they have values that I aspire to. While Nick and Xaso are good at this shit that I hate and are skilled in other ways...

What morals? Please exemplify this m8 cos i can't see anything on their server but a command for obediance and a personal empire of control.

We know you have no intrest in the political...which is a shame because then you could see that we were helping morals.

I know you told me that you liked their attitude towards laming (to fight them) but tis a fickle affair when considering internal relations and the values of a clan. I hope you were saying 'fuck that' to my speech and not Nick's - lol.

Apart from the personal liking (for unexplained reasons - wld help if you give perhaps what they said to you since the break up etc.....) of Max what are the moral attachments then. And what did Max do/say/illustrate that helped you see this. Also what weaknesses does this ATS have? It'll be good to have constructive criticism.

I know and hope that you are very observant and can gain good perspectives. So tell us what we can do to improve and what helps us better understand Max.

Humbly spoken, Kernow.
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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Fri 22 Jan 2010, 3:37 pm

This is just what I want, just don't insult him. If this isn't what you want, well, damn, figures that I can't have both - friends and leader.
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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Fri 22 Jan 2010, 4:40 pm

Abrum, we're not insulting Maximus to insult him. We're insulting him because our perception of the events leads us to state our observations, and neutrally stating our observations insults Maximus as a side-effect. As I said in the beginning, I think Outcast and Max are good guys, I just disagree with their administration.

To us, what it sounds like you're saying is: "Don't speak the truth if it insults my friend Max."

Personally, I find sticking to your values more important than coddling your friends when you feel they are doing something wrong. Being loyal is not the same thing as being obedient or following blindly. Sometimes truly being loyal requires being honest, disagreeing, and intervening in the affairs of your friends. We have been loyal; we have tried to get Outcast and Max to change their ways for the benefit of everyone. It is they who show no loyalty to us, and do not consider our opinions valuable. Whenever we reach out to help them, they reprimand us.

I apologize if you think we're trying to defame your friend in some way. It is not our intention, we simply want things to be right.

bespin_streets has been removed from the server.
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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Fri 22 Jan 2010, 6:23 pm

This is what i never get tho Nick, I never get anything back that backs up their beliefs......

You ask details for Outcast/Max they reply 'it is above you' or 'you are confused' or 'don't ask me i don't care'.

You ask their supporters like Kyle or Sylba all we get is 'change name' and 'faaakkeeerrrss wants poowwweeerrrr' -_-

I ask Abrum and there is nothing but the repeat of a lasting friendship, which, don't get me wrong i have nothing against. But i don't see how the values/virtues of Outcast/Max are shown...

Meh perhaps I am confused! lol - or perhaps there simply is no reply because there is no legitimate argument to back up their claims...i just don't know. All i want is something to think about apart from the damned unpolitical and uncontended friendship.


Abrum wrote:
Stop insulting what you don't know for sure, right?

I'm not insulting mate, i am questionning and debating. We are going down that road again where people think just because we question them we don't respect them, which is stupid. Opposition can respect hand in hand.
Again, what don't I know? Friendship with Max and Outcast yes I don't know, all i know is playing the 'you've got my full attention and friendship/loyalty' card gets you admin. lol


Again please help us to understand them better. What values do they have? What weaknesses does our system/community have? What places them over us? :S
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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Fri 22 Jan 2010, 10:46 pm

just wanted to throw this in:
nick and me, as u maybe already read, hate each other so bad... just because we are good friends xD
we are arguing and discussing and disagreeing only to ensure, that the other will improve his view, knowledge and opinion.

outcast and max claim to have the perfect view, knowledge and opinion.
thats why any argue or discussion doesnt work with and on them...
when u say, that they admit to have done mistakes is only another empty phrase: if they'd mean it, they would finally start an open and true discussion, testing their own opinion...
just like we do
just like u now several times did abrum Smile

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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Sat 23 Jan 2010, 6:15 am

Perhaps there isn't hope even in cyberspace to trust someone to know most everything, did you ever think that perhaps this is all for pretend, m8s? Max said he "hates no one out of game for ingame things", what about this? What do you think?

Hope this is clear enough to understand. I know ppl generally like more support for theories.
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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Sat 23 Jan 2010, 6:34 am

I only know these people in the game - only one person i've ever met in real life and that was coincidence as he lives next to me. It almost gives a 'nothing personal' message from Max which i don't understand when he insults us behind our backs and discredits this ATS.

Going back to the 'its just a game relax' argument doesn't work on me, the game despite having virtual reality has a physical and mental effect on the player. He/She could be offended by insults, shocked by change, saddened by departing friends or exitement in tournyments. Although its 'just a game' we develop an emotional and mental attachment to JK2 and ATS; this clan isn't just a normal game it actually uses a game to bring together people from across the world, boosting unity and friendship regardless of age and real life condition.

I wouldn't look down on Outcast or Max if I met them in real life but it would be awkward, lol. I RESPECT him as a real life player with real life emotional attachments, I RESPECT/APPRECIATE what he started here in JK2 and I am LOYAL to the values and morals that he so boldly promotes. But I disagree with his tactics of running a community and clan, this doesn't mean i oppose him but merely argue with him. Keep in mind Abrum we never did any physical insult first, what we have done was apologised for and provoked in the first place.

~K.P

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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Sat 23 Jan 2010, 7:27 am

Abrum wrote:
Max said he "hates no one out of game for ingame things", what about this? What do you think?
I think there is truth behind this, but he contradicts himself with the insults he throws at us and his uncooperativeness. He is able to step back to reality when someone accuses him of being mean, but he's not able to do it when he's actually being mean.

He may not hate people, but he has certainly been unkind. If he would recognize that both his ATS and our ATS are striving to foster a community of kindness instead of labeling us "rats and stealers," then perhaps we could make progress.
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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Sat 23 Jan 2010, 7:23 pm


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PostSubject: Re: outcast's final mod   Today at 8:23 am

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