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 Thought of the day

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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Thought of the day   Sat 04 Jul 2015, 12:15 pm

In the light of the recent events, I feel the urge to write this post. I am sorry, if it’s too long for you. When I re-discovered JK2 six years ago, many people – especially in ATS – treated me like a youngster. They said: “You’re just a new kid, what do you know?” But now they often treat me like … like the pope. They listen to what I say, they even expect me to say something about everything, and on top of that they take my word as sacrosanct – unless you’re not a part of the SoL-religion, then I am just an old scrub for you. But even the believers are not content with me. In the end it’s all the same: Many people don’t really cherish what I say or do. And I see the same fate for this post. But what the heck, why stop now after 6 years? Just let me be a little less politically correct, than I usually try to be.

I know that JK2 is just a game and that many people think they can act like real douchebags because of that. But in my opinion, you’re a douchebag, when you act like a douchebag, no matter if it’s in the real life or not. And lying, badmouthing, harassing and things like that make you a douchebag.

Now you can disagree with this, which is fine. Some people have to be wrong in order to prove the right people right. The problem is just this: SoL was set up with a definition similar to mine – hence I joined it (ATS) or helped to create it (SoL). The words were different, the rules were enforced differently, but the essence was the same: We have more fun, if we are not acting like douchebags and playing with people that are not acting like douchebags. This basic distinction divided SoL from clans that only focus on the skill, clans that honor people, who are able to “rape” other people “into submission”.

But SoL has some more characteristics to it. I won’t go through all of them but two. One thing is that SoL believes that cheating is unfair and killing the game – even cheating against cheaters is not alright. If I say “believe” it can be taken seriously, or let’s say: take is as a religion (since I am the pope anyway). Why do people join this weird clan that is against cheating, while seemingly 99% of the players do cheat? It would seem like religious zeal to me, to join this sect against cheating while all the others cheat. But then I can’t help but wonder about the changes of mind, when I see people use cheats inside the clan or leave it in order to cheat or leave it and cheat a few days later. If you deem it viable to use cheats, then you shouldn’t have joined in the first place.

Maybe some people are wondering about our behavior towards cheaters, even after they understood our thoughts about cheating. But let me make it clear: We hate cheating, but we don’t hate cheaters for the sake of them being cheaters. (We can hate cheaters for being douchebags, just like we can hate non-cheaters for being douchebags.) A cheater can be a nice person – but he can’t be in SoL. Another aim of SoL is it, to save the game. A war against cheaters wouldn’t serve that goal. So we tolerate a lot of cheating – even if we whine.

Another problem is the treating of cheaters within SoL, which might confuse people. First thing is: We can only take measures upon proven cheating. To prove cheating is like proving the existence of bigfoot. You know it’s there and you even got a shaky screenshot of it, but in the end no-one can ever be sure, if it wasn’t only wishful thinking after all. So let me skip that. I rather want to address the misunderstanding of our “tolerance” of cheaters in SoL. We “allow” people to use cheats, as long as they do it with another name on another server. But fact is, we don’t allow it. We just cannot track someone, who is undercover on another server. I cannot check the IP of Padawan on a random server, so I cannot tell that it’s a certain SoL member, who is cheating. That’s all of the “allowance”. The point still stands: When you want to cheat, why join SoL in the first place?

Now our seeming allowance has gone very far in a few cases. But that is, because we can still like people who cheat, and consider them friends. I know Grimmjow uses cheats under circumstances. But he is honest about it. I like honesty. Grimmjow is a good friend. I don’t want him to disappear. I should maybe excommunicate him, but I am apparently a bad pope. But why would I like someone who is pretending or blatantly lying? So even in doing wrong, Grimmjow is doing better than people that have come and passed over the time.

The other characteristic of SoL is the unique fact, that it is a democracy. And again I can’t help but wonder how people can misunderstand what a democracy is. Sure there are different democracies all over the world and all over history. But this one is a very direct one. It is a democracy, because you gain power by applying it. By posting and by convincing, you change things. You don’t even have to own administrative rights to have more power than all the administrators. One thoughtful post can convince all the others. If you found the right thing to do and are able to explain it, you have the power. So everyone has the power.

And still there are people who are bold enough to complain about democracy, while all the possibilities are open to them. It’s like feeling rejected from a party, although you have a million invitations in your inbox. This means, if you think this democracy failed, you failed, because you kept sitting at home, instead of joining the party. I concede, that some of the complainers did join the party and now they complain that it’s always the same people choosing the music and that they don’t want to dance to it. But it is the same problem, if you think about it. Because usually there is no music playing, because everyone is sitting there staying at the ground. After a while always the same people walk up to the sound system and put their “Get-Psyched-Mix” into the jukebox, even though these people wish, that someone else would add their musical taste for a change. So again it is yourself, who were unable to apply the freedom of democracy.

And I also think that it’s foolish to blame democracy, if you dislike certain members of the clan. Just imagine it wouldn’t be a democracy. Then you’d be completely dependent on the choices of your divine leader. It can go well for a while, but then he might let a friend join, who is a pure pain in the butt. So you have to face this problem in any kind of clan. And now imagine your leader becomes devious. You’re screwed then. This cannot happen in a democracy like this. Not only is every member-to-be examined by all the current members, a democracy can cope with conflicts between their members, at times the democracy can even benefit from it: diverging opinions raise the quality of the discussion. Only as soon as people forget the benefit of diverging opinions, they can also lose the quality of discussion. They will turn the discussion into mere hassle.

Having said this in defense of the clan, I want to express my confusion about the behavior of certain people upon leaving this clan. How is it possible, that one day you’re in this clan and you acting like being dedicated to it, you contribute and befriend the other members; and on the other day you are despising the same clan and badmouth members of that same clan? Were they pretending all the time? Or did their personality change from one day to another? Maybe they haven’t been SoL material in the first place. Maybe I am wrong with feeling a loss and betrayal. Maybe I should just let myself be amused by the hypocrisy of blaming for hypocrisy.

SoL has existed for nearly 6 years by now – meanwhile other clans came and went, even “the game is dying”. The clan isn’t making all the things wrong. It cannot be, given the length of history. I am tired of telling the people who are SoL members by heart to keep their heads up. For once I want to tell the opposition: I don't only like turtles, I really love you, you kings of Burger King, give me a nice hug and fly some kite.
I’m done preaching my weekend-sermon.

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Vader
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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Sat 04 Jul 2015, 1:21 pm

I think you should sticky this. ^^ Perhaps even have it as another thing to read when someone joins.
I would say more, but I don't think there's any need too. Smile


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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Mon 06 Jul 2015, 9:49 am

I rather don't sticky it, lol.
But I didn't expect this topic to have such little response. I take it as a good sign.

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Dark Misery



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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Mon 06 Jul 2015, 6:02 pm

Yes.
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Battledroidlover
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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Tue 07 Jul 2015, 6:39 am

Good post Xaso, you put a lot of work into your writing.

All hail the pope !
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Xemnas
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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Tue 07 Jul 2015, 8:56 am

We can never be sure about everyone.
Especialy when there is just this forum and the game.
We all live behind a mask here in SoL.
And sometimes they drop the mask ontop of the mask and show themselves.

Humans do change.
But the question allways is if its good or not.
I think we all can be like ''screw this'' from one day to another.
But those who stick to these past 6 years and all the blood and sweat are likely to stay.

Im here from the beginning. Inactive alot but i was still there in a way.
So I'd never leave^^

I dont like hypocrites at all.
They are everywhere...
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Battledroidlover
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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Tue 07 Jul 2015, 9:40 am

^ ^

Pretty much whatever happens I don't think I'd ever leave either. I've been a member of this clan since before it was even called SoL and I've never left, I may occasionally go inactive for a while but I'll always come back!
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Grimmjow



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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Tue 07 Jul 2015, 9:49 am

I have first read it now Xaso.
But yeah well i don't know really what to reply to this post hehe.

But i fully agree with you on that it's getting frustrating that you think you know people. And you know what they're dedicating themselves to. I have tried this many times over the years in the clans i have owned and been part of, and yeah well it seems like when it comes to online games then people don't give a shit for each others.

But i got no intend of leaving SoL i have been a member for long now even with my afk period away from the game hehe.

(but it would be awesome to see more people online at the SoL server again)
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Tue 07 Jul 2015, 10:13 am

thank you for the input guys. I am glad that at least some people are truely dedicated.

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KingYodah
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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Tue 07 Jul 2015, 10:51 am

Luring me they can, give me one reason why to leave and I give you thousand reasons why to stay!

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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Tue 07 Jul 2015, 11:02 am

I did not read this until now I was at a buddies house all weekend for a 4th of july party, it was about 7 of us around a bonfire with beer.

I do agree I dislike the double standards that seem to be going on as of late, for me personally, I would not leave the clan unless the following things happen:

1) I become to much of an asshole and leave to save you all from my douchebagger
2)you guys kick me on my ass (out of the clan) for being an asshole.
3) I have a serious problem with something or someone that I just cant stand being apart of it any longer, and it would have to be something serious for that to even happen.

so yeah I don't like how people can be devoted as hell and then an hour later be like: "fly a kite this shit I'm outta here."

it makes no sense to me, if you really don't give a shit in the first place just fly a kite say it and be done with it, don't pretend because then it really hurts the people around you when your true motives come into the light.

I also hate it when people make up BULLSHIT excuses as to why they leave and do not put in their real reasons, if you have a problem with something fly a kite say it so even if you do leave we can work on it later, don't Bullshit us because it just doesn't help anyone.

idk, maybe I am just unique that when I actually feel about something I don't sugar coat it I just fly a kite say it... but I think that's the way it should be all the time for everyone.
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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Tue 07 Jul 2015, 12:50 pm

Yup, it's really surprising how people can just throw away so many years of commitment. I remember when I left SoL to go to AoF, it was a hard decision but I based it off of the major lack of activity both on forum and server. However now that I'm back I try to help out as much as I can.

It really disgusts me how someone can leave with so much work they put into the clan (of course if their reasoning actually makes any sense than all is well, and we just have to cope with it). Not only were they mere members but they also made changes to the clan. (ex; zelah making the topic about freezing council, and soon after leaves once the poll was finished) It really makes zero sense. Are you just trolling from the beginning? Or were you a legitimate member? We will never know because of the silent treatment we are getting. Because you don't go around doing those kinds of changes as you so please and then abandoning it.

Anyway, I'm not trying to pick fights (even tho it kind of sounded like it). I just felt the need to say it. It really is a HUGE disappointment that we are losing members, just because they suddenly "change their mind".

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devY The Invincible



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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Wed 08 Jul 2015, 11:48 am

What is very suprising to me is how little you seem to care for the ones who actually dedicated themselves to SoL, now that they left.

You should be thankful for having these members at any point, as they contributed to your community and it would most likely not be half as active without having them in the first place.

That disgusts me.

Just because they choose a different community instead of yours, that does not mean you have the right to disrespect them by picking at them in your forums after all they've done.
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Angelis



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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Wed 08 Jul 2015, 12:16 pm

No one was talking about communities devy, and even if they wished to look into other communities I could care less as I am sure others are as well....

What pisses me off is that people are wanting to force major changes to the clans infrastructure and once the changes occur they leave and don't commit to the changes they had a major part in achieving.



How would you like it if someone forced a drastic change onto jip and then didn't stick around to see it through.


So please, before you go insulting how people are acting and correcting behavior, actually read and understand what is being said first, otherwise you just look stupid.
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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Wed 08 Jul 2015, 1:47 pm

Forcing a change? thats comical... Want to know why I pushed so hard for that change of disbanding council? It was because I cared, because that was what was best for the clan and whether I was going to stay or not (i was uncertain at the time) i was going to try and help the clan in the best way I could. I dont get angry easily, but this topic makes me angry, not really the original post, but the comments on it. You dont get to call someone unloyal because they disagree with things or simply get driven nuts by members of the clan and decide another place provides more fun playing the game. You want to talk about loyalty? Creating a topic to bash people who left your clan for reasons you dont even know... That's not loyalty. That's childish

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Angelis



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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Wed 08 Jul 2015, 4:26 pm

One it's our forums and we can discuss what we wish regardless of maturity.


Two, if we don't know the reasons you left that means you lied on your original post and i for one would like to hear the real reason or reasons

Three if you weren't feeling commited you shouldn't have been changing anything at all, specially something that major, if your not going to bare the fruits of your labor it doesn't really concerned you. Making choices for others when you shouldn't be is childish.

Four no one said anything about disagreeing wth are you talking about?

Don't talk out of anger actually think about it otherwise it doesn't make any sense at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Wed 08 Jul 2015, 4:33 pm

Lol I'm sorry what did I force on anyone? I thought this was a democracy which would mean 1 person can't force anything. Who knew I was leading a dictatorship that could force things on people... Oh wait... The majority of the clan voted for that proposal so I guess I didn't force anything on anyone.

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KingYodah
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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Wed 08 Jul 2015, 7:46 pm

We disgust you? YOUR group was/is stealing our members. THEY didnt talk about problems they have. If THEY cared they would speak to us. We cant help with solving a problem if you are SILENT. Then everyone thinks things are ok. Plus THEY secretely left our group. THEY apparently werent so dedicated when THEY dumped SoL ideals so easily and Zelah even resorted to cheating - before he starts here I am aware of why he was ks-ing. Instead of REPORTING he decided to cheat. And too easily. THAT is not dedication. That is corruption. And that disgusts me.

Still, it is their decision and I respect that. Even if I am not twice happy

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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Wed 08 Jul 2015, 8:29 pm

The fact that you call it "stealing" is quite offensive.. Do you not think all 3 of them had a choice? Grow up, holy shit.

Now you're claiming that Danek (a founding member, sort of) and Zelah (a long time being admin) did not care? They were some of the best you had.
Take a minute to think about it. Maybe they were not the problem, maybe you were?

SoL ideals, since when do any of you care..? Devil, Ajunta Pall, Rachel etc all used KS and yet they stayed in SoL so don't try to convince me that any of you are so intrested in following these long outdated rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Wed 08 Jul 2015, 9:11 pm

Danek and Bacara secretely left SoL, and joined you (Bacara claimed not enough activity but ook). No one of them bothered to talk to us. And I am also aware of that you keep asking multiple other our members to join you. Meanie kept asking also me. What the hell you are up to?

And read my posts again, I didnt say they didnt care at all but obviously they dont now. I said they didnt care to talk to us. Tell me, how you want to settle a problem when you dont talk about it?

And please you dont try to convince me of what I am caring for

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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Wed 08 Jul 2015, 9:28 pm

I asked Zelah, did not think Danek was intrested but he joined anyway. What am I supposed to do about it? Who are these other members?
I think they talked to the ones they found worth talking to.
Well, I would've kicked you out anyhow so it doesn't matter.

One cannot change another persons behavior because it does not make you happy. Instead one should seek other oppurtunities elsewhere, which is exactly what they all did.

Convince you? I meant "you" as in plural, none of you really care for ksing, it's just an excuse to lash out at Zelah since you have nothing else to say.
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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Wed 08 Jul 2015, 9:57 pm

Tell me at least one bloody reason why I would to join you anyway lmfao

You are obviously missing the point, Zelah instead of reporting what happened or so, resorted to cheating, that proves lack of sane thinking from his side (not saying it might have been just him fyi). That I of course cant like. He was whole time strongly against any cheating. Why such sudden change?

You call it seeking opportunity elsewhere. I call it fleeing from trying to settle things. Of course forcing people to change their behavior isnt helping, I am not trying to change their personality, that is everyone's privacy. I want to know why no one of them talked to us, why they (except Zelah) did it undercover and even changing names like Bacara so we dont discover them, and such

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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Wed 08 Jul 2015, 10:24 pm

Before this escalates completly.

We cannot decide or force anyone in staying or leaving.
If they leave this clan its their goddamn right.
BUT!
I think that the clan deserves to know why the person left.
Giving the wrong reason or only a part of them is just bullcrap.

If certain people have problems with others you have to TALK.
Its no good for anyone if you keep your problems to yourselves.
It does not give anyone any chance to maybe talk it through and come to solutions or changes.

And leaving a clan and joining a different one without wanting the other clan to know is just immature in my eyes.
After all those years a clan deserves better.
I mean srsly? What should we say? Get angry and idk what else?
JUST SAY THAT YOU WANT TO JOIN A DIFFERENT CLAN.
We just would like to know some reason to maybe change things for the better.
I kind of feel betrayed if someone leaves to join something else in secret or wont point out their problems and just go.
It just seases misstrust and anger.

That is not good for anyone.
Not good for the clan.
Clan realations.
Jk2 community.
Friends.

Xem out.
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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Wed 08 Jul 2015, 10:48 pm

I really would be surprised if there would be someone who would disagree with it. Geez that is what we here are trying for

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PostSubject: Re: Thought of the day   Wed 08 Jul 2015, 11:22 pm

I don't understand why we're all arguing over this. Yeah okay 3 members have left to join another clan, so what ? It's their decision and I wish them luck with it. I don't get why everyone's in such a mess about this. And the reasons for the members leaving doesn't have to be made public... why should it ? It's their business !

What's the point in just sitting and complaining that people have left ? It's just brought us all into an argument and has pitted people that were once friends against each other !

End of the day Devy isn't "stealing" members, they willingly leave.
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