On Tim's reapproval

Posts : 1149

First topic message reminder :

I can't leave it like this. I know most of you hold a fairly favourable view of Tim and regard him as a friend, but with his poll running, I feel an urge to share my negative opinion of him. I'm going to include excerpts from his PMs, since he said "Idk Iggy, my cards are pretty fly a kite open right now". Plesase take some time and re-read the topics I linked to.

First time leaving the clan - https://soljk2.forumotion.com/t4213-departure
I would like to point out he used studying for exams as one of the reasons for his decision:

Tim wrote:: This year at school will be a difficult and trying time for me....and this is neccessary for me....as painful as it is. I swear to you all that I will come back wiser and stronger than ever before....but for now it is my studies that rank top priority.

Soon, it was revealed indirectly that he joined HACKS. His relation:

Tim wrote:: Okay here is the deal. I didn't explain it to Micr0 so he already hates me. I am at Hacks to learn how to mod, map, and how to use admin controls. I did not betray you, I don't plan too. There are those angry at me. Please don't be. That is the last thing I ever wanted to happen. I also didn't realize that McMonkey is waaaaaay too attached to him admin powers. I was also promised high level that still has not been presented to me. Let me put this in an analogy for you: You are promised all of the candy in a candy store but then you get there and they only give you one piece and then tell you that they don't trust you. So I was screwed xD.

Studying was a made-up justification - have in mind that he joined us a few weeks later, and I'm certain he didn't drop out of school. So he lied.
McMonkey's remark:

mcmonkey wrote:: And it has nothing to do with his leaving either way. A newer member mistakenly promised him immediate council membership and high rank upon joining, and when he didn't get it, he ragequit.

Some more lying:

Ezio wrote:: if you will just relax, and not use HACKS and AoF for our modding capability's. Nice to know your using us, as you said you were using SoL for combat training. For now, Yes, I brake my promise, because you do not seem to have the proper criteria to lead the clan in the direction wanted.

Rejoining - https://soljk2.forumotion.com/t4407-betrayal-i-am-an-obvious-idiot
Not much here to explicitly comment.

Second time leaving - https://soljk2.forumotion.com/t4871-not-my-choice-1-year-of-fair-play-equality-and-democracy

Tim wrote:: So becuase of that, I have decided to leave JK2, probably forever. I feel great remorse, mostly because I have so many friends, all over this game, and now I have to walk away from it. School is really a priority for me now, and if I work hard enough in sports and the classroom, I could be in line for a football scholarship. This has been somewhat of a Revelation for me, as I was able to experience what people all over the world are like, and I have learned a great deal that will benefit me in the future. This isn't a rage quit or me abandoning ship, I just feel like I have finally come to grips with reality.

He said that because of his studies he's leaving the game. Not the clan, the game. Compare the last sentence with these lines from his PM:

Tim wrote:: I helped AoF break from HACKS. It was basically like the ATS SoL split, just obviously much smaller (but lots of drama nonetheless). I built the AoF forum while I was still in SoL, I didnt ever plan on leaving, but SoL started to die, and soon I was the only active on the server for a while.

You get the picture, I panicked and figured I'd be clan hunting in a bit anyway. But SoL lived, and I regretted it the whole past year I've been running AoF.

Desire to play with active players is perfectly fine, but he covered up with a lie. His studies are, again, an excuse.

Sometime after Tim left SoL, there was a rumour that he might be playing in AoF. Tim claims that he purposefully let Teddy share the news that he's now known as Leonardo, but I *know* that's not how it went. I was on AoF then, and I with no doubts recall how disappointed Tim was that he'd been found out. I want to get something across: it is a great thing Tim ran a community, but he was utterly dishonest in the process.

I am not against people rejoining. If you take a look at Zelah's posts, he stated why he would leave and why he's trying to rejoin. He was honest. Now check what Tim said. In our PM exchange, I pointed that out too, and said that Zelah had played his cards open. In Tim's opinion, he himself is doing the same. Why is there a rift between his words in PMs and on public forums ?

There was one more thing that affirmed my negativity. A long time ago I visited AoF, and started challenging its members to duels. Tim was online, and I threw him the gauntlet too. I was fighting incredibly well that time, with nice long-lasting drags and blue/yellow swipes which hit. One third into the duel Tim abruptly brought his chatbox up, and then a small explosion spawned in front of him (some member command). The duel prolonged mercilessly, and I was pushed into defensive blue. I lost the duel, him at ~45/0. I burst with anger, and not simply due to losing an important match I thought I played so well in. I was certain that he cheated. The sound effects don't lie - if I hear a long sequence of that crisp flesh burning sound, I know that the drag was executed well. I was completely convinced that he should have died from all that damage. When I brought forth the accusation, all I got in return was acting innocent and making me look like a fool.
In today's PM:

Tim wrote:: Mmmm you know what I just remembered our last encounter. Sorry I'm slow to remember. You accused me of cheating in a duel on server right? You got pretty mad. I remember now. Yeah I used a bacta mid battle, I'm sorry about that.

I guess the explosion was there to mask the bacta healing sound. Tim said it without me pushing him and that has some significance, but that confession is way overdue. Besides, now that he acknowledged it, I can share the situation without the doubts I had. I sincerely think that with what he's done he should no longer be able to wear our tag. I'm not telling you to cancel your friendships.
If you guys think I'm presenting my own version of our dispute here, I will be more than happy to publish our whole PM conversation. I can play my cards open. This topic is placed in Member Chat so that the drama doesn't spill to non-members - Tim has sympathy here and he ought to be notified that it's here.

Sith Lord Posts : 1304

1. You are not the avatar, the avatar is a fictional being that you seem to admire so you try to emulate his personality.
2. It is not your role to reason this situation, that role is one of a leader to which you are not as we have no leaders in SoL.
3. We are not all one people. For that to be true we would have to be clones of each other, but we are not due to genetic mutations which make us different.

The rest of your statement I had no issue with as that was relevant to the situation.

Jedi Adept Posts : 934

Axel wrote:: 1. You are not the avatar, the avatar is a fictional being that you seem to admire so you try to emulate his personality.
2. It is not your role to reason this situation, that role is one of a leader to which you are not as we have no leaders in SoL.
3. We are not all one people. For that to be true we would have to be clones of each other, but we are not due to genetic mutations which make us different.

The rest of your statement I had no issue with as that was relevant to the situation.

1. Indeed i am not, but i like the avatar very much, and this only a game, it aint real, so it is my choice of who i wish to be. Some members whould like to be Darth revan.
or an Assasin from assasins creed and so on.

2. true

3. thats not true, im a human being your a human being, xasomur is a human being, timmy is a human being and soooo on.

Jedi Knight Posts : 2741

Avatar Aang wrote:: The monks used to say that revenge is like a two-headed rat-viper. While you watch your enemy go down, you're being poisoned yourself.

I like you already Aang Very Happy

Jedi Adept Posts : 934

Im not trying to go against my SoL members, ive been to long in this clan, to do that. Im just trying to reason my own words

Posts : 13101

Tim Skywalker wrote:: Yep Iggy, that is all true, except the part of the admin explosion, that was me logging out so we could have a fair and civil fight. You have a very honorable sense when it comes to nf and I admire that.

Actually I didn't want to pick on that. I consider it a one-time-never-happen-again-abuse of bacta. But I don't get this argument. You want a fair and civil fight, and you use bacta? And wait, wait, wait! Why did you need to log off from admin? What makes being admin hinder a fair and civil fight, but using admin?

Tim, please don't get me wrong. I still deem you a good and friendly person. I don't want to destroy the friendship we have. I hope you feel the same. But there are things, I just don't understand, and I'm sorry if it's uncomfortable for you. But I hope it's for the better and I fear it would have come up anyway somewhen. So I will just clarify my thoughts now.

Tim Skywalker wrote:: Yeah, as I explained to Igrom in my series of PM's, my cards are open. I've done bad things. None of you deserved a lie or to hear a fake ridiculous story of why I had to go. That was wrong, and by any standards, unforgivable. I could say sorry all I want, but its not going to fix anything. But, if you'll let me, I will serve SoL and prove to you all that I am in fact, a different person now, but also older, wiser, and more mature.

You have explained to Igrom in personal messages, that your cards are open.
I really support that you try to fix the tensions between you and Igrom. It can only be for the better. But I don't get this: If you are really that sorry for what happened and regret some stuff that was going on, and if you feel the urge to set things right... why not public for all SoL? Why to Igrom alone? Sure, many people don't ask, they are happy to see you back, like me. I wouldn't have asked, if those things wouldn't have been pointed out to me. And at a time my couriosity was awake.
I will voice now my darkest suspicion: I got the impression that this approach to Igrom was a try, to say the things, he wants to hear.

And I tell you why I got this impression:
It's the tone of your writings. I read alot of nice, emotional and big words. But I see no concrete stuff. It's hard to quote something there... It's basically most of the post. You say you're ashamed, you say you're committed, you want to prove us wrong... But there is no manifest prove of that. Sure, you will say it's hard to prove. Maybe it is, but so many other people who came and went in SoL, managed it fine... Revealing their minds to us and making us believe their mind has changed... Let me say it a little more provoking: I see "overly-friendly" and overly-dramatic words - like in a theatre-play - but I see no sincere and direct words. As if you tried to catch our affection, instead of clearing the problems.
I think I just found a good quote:

Tim Skywalker wrote:: You have a right to call me dishonest, or to question my history, but you have no right to question who I personally am, question my values, or decide on your own that I am not fit to wear SoL tags.

A mixture of concession and high ideals... But isn't is contradictionary? Having a right to call someone dishonest, but no right to question the values? Having the right to question your history, but not who you personally are? How else can we judge who you are, but by the actions you did - called history? I guess this is the kind of sayings that give the impression of affection-catching and hiding the truth.

I will get to the core now. I guess here lies my deepest confusion, and maybe at this point you also can show your real means.
The thing I can't understand is: If you had been honest from the start - during your two departures - there wouldn't have been any problems. If you wanted to leave SoL for another clan... sure, do it. Where is the problem? Why lie? If you wanted to leave SoL for learning how to map... sure, do it! Why lie? If you wanted to run your own clan and had thus to leave SoL, sure do it. Why lie?
All that drama just arose, because you lied, not because you left. Why did you tell us, you would have to study and couldn't play at all, if it wasn't true? If SoL was inactive and you wanted active people to play with, why didn't you tell it right away? I just don't get it. There was no need to lie... Why did you do?

And to close the circle again: If you regretted some of those actions, why didn't you just apologized right away? Why are you saying, you regret and feel ashamed, while you aren't acting as if you did?

That's the side I've got problems with. But I'm afraid people might get me wrong, if I don't put spotlight on another side:
I fear that this examination of Timmy is not effective. Sure, it could be helpful for us and him, for our communication and the atmosphere in the clan. But it makes the problems NOW appear bigger than they will be. I am to 100% sure, that accepting Tim to SoL would have no bad influence to SoL itself. In opposite: Tim would be an active, discussing, participating, contributing and dedicated member. All those psychologic questions for the actings of him in the past and now would be obsolete, since we all know Tim as a good member and player. He is also friendly on the server and fun to play with. If the past wouldn't be, there wouldn't be any doubt on his poll. That's why I can understand everyone who says: Let the past be past.
Because of all the positives and my personal affection and friendship towards Tim, I am personally inclined to give no account to the things of the past and the strange notion I feel from the "overly-friendly" and "overly-dramatic". At this point I'd like to say: Hey, it's just a game...

But still there are emotions involved, not only mine, also others... And once this topic was brought up, and Timmy willing to pass this examination for good, I posted this. I'm playing the advocatus diaboli, the inquisitor today, though I don't like that role... But I hope it helps.

Jedi Knight Posts : 2741

Xaso wrote:: Actually I didn't want to pick on that. I consider it a one-time-never-happen-again-abuse of bacta. But I don't get this argument. You want a fair and civil fight, and you use bacta? And wait, wait, wait! Why did you need to log off from admin? What makes being admin hinder a fair and civil fight, but using admin?

There were certain commands, such as the one that produced the explosion that Iggy saw, that I had binded. Being it Igrom, I was ready to button mash my way to defeat, therefore I logged out of admin so I would neither be tempted, or accidentally use them.

Xaso wrote:: why not public for all SoL? Why to Igrom alone? Sure, many people don't ask, they are happy to see you back, like me. I wouldn't have asked, if those things wouldn't have been pointed out to me. And at a time my couriosity was awake.
I will voice now my darkest suspicion: I got the impression that this approach to Igrom was a try, to say the things, he wants to hear.

If you read my above post carefully, I am addressing all of SoL. I am simply restating what Igrom has not shared with you of our PMs.

And frankly Xaso, these "theater-words" you continue to speak of, is me telling you that I want another chance and I'm willing to work for it. I'm not going to continue to argue about the fact if I'm commited to the cause or not. You see no sincere or direct words, because this is just writing, on a post, on a forum, on the internet. You can't see my face, or hear my voice, so I don't expect you to believe me, I knew there would be serious doubts about me when I came back. What I ask for is for your trust, and I won't let you down. No tricks, no betrayals, I just want to be back.

Look. When I was 15 I had some trouble at both home and school because I kept lying to my parents and my teachers about homework or projects. I never did them really, and I was an awful student. I'd come home to play lots of games, and not study and such. I could lie my way out of anything, and at the times of when I had to leave SoL, the only thing I could think to do was to lie, because I was too young and stupid to realize that the truth would actually make the situation better. Don't take it personally, its just the type of kid I was. Eventually life caught up with me and I had some major disciplinary action at home and school and I was basically forced to tell the truth. It consisted of each of my teachers talking to my parents every night. I was physically unable to lie, and because of that I don't do it anymore.

I ask for your trust and I understand if it basically seems like suicide, but when I say that I'm a new person, I am a new person. I am ashamed because I care too much about what other people think about me and therefore I try hard to make sure I'm not at odds anymore, a sad realization that I come to is you can't make everyone like to and I'm beginning to accept that fact.

I implore to everyone in SoL, if you really want to see proof that I'm a different person, come play with me on the server, send me PMs, talk with me on skype, however you can reach me.

Jedi Adept Posts : 934

I belive him why cant you xasomur?
Yes indeed has this young boy done some bad things in the past, but like i said it is not our right to hold grudges on people that have failed in the past, but are now trying to prove them selfs that he/she has changed.

A little story: Do you guys know the serious Avatar the last airbender?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In season 4: You all should Remember the Young Prince Zuko, who was banished from the fire nation coz he sopke out of term in a war meeting when he was young.
And Zuko was only alowed to comeback when he would have the Avatar.
Young Prinze Zoko tracked down the Avatar all over the world, and he did not stop.
In season 3: Azula the sister of Zuko captured zuko and put him in a cell together with Katara at Ba sing sa.
In the cell Zuko told katara about his child hood, it was so sad. And katara actully felt sorry about zuko.
Topf, Unkel iroh and the others freed the both. But when katara and the Avatar had to fight against Azula, Zuko chose to join his sister, katara felt betrayed.
Eventully the Avatar got shot with lightning by Azula, while he was in the Avatar State.

Now to the point:
In season 4: Zuko finally realized what he done wrong and chose the join the Avatar to defeat the fire lord.
First everyone did not want him joining, becoz what he done in the past, But zuko proved them that he had changed.
And then he was alowed to join, coz the Avatar gave Zuko a chance.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The point of this story was to show you that evan the Avatar could give his enemy a chance.

And i think we should give Timmy a chance!

Like i already said The monks used to say that revenge is like a two-headed rat-viper. While you watch your enemy go down, you're being poisoned yourself.

Posts : 13101

Tim Skywalker wrote:: There were certain commands, such as the one that produced the explosion that Iggy saw, that I had binded. Being it Igrom, I was ready to button mash my way to defeat, therefore I logged out of admin so I would neither be tempted, or accidentally use them.

Well, basically it's about the discrepance between you wanting to play "civil" but using bacta...

Tim Skywalker wrote:: If you read my above post carefully, I am addressing all of SoL. I am simply restating what Igrom has not shared with you of our PMs.

I noticed that. And I think it's a good decision to search communication with the one, who was voicing his objection. That's all fine. But from what I see those PMs to Igrom have many stuff, that also should be directed to the whole clan. Sure, it's fine if you talk to him too, but you made little movement to clear up things of the past (like the question of why you lied). It's kind of strange to me, that you wrote to him, how you feel about your actions towards SoL, but didn't publicly write something as well. If you would have written a message to Igrom, about the duel incidence only, then I would have understood, that it's no public topic actually. Or if you would have first only *asked* for the grudge Igrom holds. But you wrote a universal apology/excuse. But then, as he points out the actual reasons for the grudge, you're not targetting them. I hope we can fix that, so that this whole topic can be fixed. Timmy, please know it's at least as uncomfortable for me, as it is for you...

Tim Skywalker wrote:: And frankly Xaso, these "theater-words" you continue to speak of, is me telling you that I want another chance and I'm willing to work for it. I'm not going to continue to argue about the fact if I'm commited to the cause or not. You see no sincere or direct words, because this is just writing, on a post, on a forum, on the internet. You can't see my face, or hear my voice, so I don't expect you to believe me, I knew there would be serious doubts about me when I came back. What I ask for is for your trust, and I won't let you down. No tricks, no betrayals, I just want to be back.

Fair enough for me. It's just that from a certain kind of perspective the actions aren't matching the words... Or, in another view, the words correspond to a dazzling attitude.

Tim Skywalker wrote:: Look. When I was 15 I had some trouble at both home and school because I kept lying to my parents and my teachers about homework or projects. I never did them really, and I was an awful student. I'd come home to play lots of games, and not study and such. I could lie my way out of anything, and at the times of when I had to leave SoL, the only thing I could think to do was to lie, because I was too young and stupid to realize that the truth would actually make the situation better. Don't take it personally, its just the type of kid I was. Eventually life caught up with me and I had some major disciplinary action at home and school and I was basically forced to tell the truth. It consisted of each of my teachers talking to my parents every night. I was physically unable to lie, and because of that I don't do it anymore.

Are you basically saying, you lied, because you were used to lying? You lied for no real reason? If that's true, then it's no wonder, that no-one understands the reasoning behind it.

This is just an awful situation. I wouldn't puch such pressure on you Tim, if it wasn't for Igrom. I guess there is no doubt that you would be a win for the vitality of SoL and for the discussions we have, for the activity of our forum and for our server. Personally, I am even convinced that you are really striving for the best. You are really willing to be committed, dedicated and loyal. So please forgive me for this awkward examination.

Sith Lord Posts : 5188

I say we give him a chance and accept him back in Smile

Jedi Knight Posts : 2741

Xaso wrote:: Are you basically saying, you lied, because you were used to lying? You lied for no real reason? If that's true, then it's no wonder, that no-one understands the reasoning behind it.

This is just an awful situation. I wouldn't puch such pressure on you Tim, if it wasn't for Igrom. I guess there is no doubt that you would be a win for the vitality of SoL and for the discussions we have, for the activity of our forum and for our server. Personally, I am even convinced that you are really striving for the best. You are really willing to be committed, dedicated and loyal. So please forgive me for this awkward examination.

Yes it seems you understand now, and I'm glad that you do Smile

I await the decision now.

Posts : 13101

Mhhkay.
So you are obviously avoiding the bacta-incident...
And the explanation for the happenings in the past leaves me as puzzled as before.

But now, I guess, we have to see what the future holds, don't we?

Jedi Adept Posts : 934

Jedi Knight Posts : 2741

Omg fine Xaso.

The bacta was dishonest yes, it was. I'M SORRY. I take dueling seriously, I swear that I do and I won't participate in that again. I had no idea Igrom would take one duel so personally either, but like you said, I should be focusing on the clan of SoL as a whole, not just one member.

And I thought you just said you understood, but I get it if you're confused.

Jedi Knight Posts : 694

Well, I've missed a lot Very Happy

I'd say let him join, he really has changed. Still has been a friend of mine even sense when he left to hacks. Even though I'm not really in sol but, Tim is an outstanding member, and friend. He is always active on forums, and active in game. Being in AoF and seeing him there, I kinda felt and knew that he didn't belong there, he is definite SoL material.
Everybody goes through changes and experiences that they soon learn what they have done, and Tim knows lying was a bad path that he shouldn't have took. But this is the "NOW" and I think leo has learned from his mistakes.

~Micr0z

Posts : 1149

For the record, I was the one who had doubts about Tim - now that I'm out of the equation, I think his poll should resume (subtract one "no", because I haven't cancelled my vote). The poll is already due, by the way.

Jedi Knight Posts : 694

As I said I've missed a lot, and I barley look and know my stuff before I go to certain topics, hah my bad homie Very Happy

~Micr0z

Jedi Knight Posts : 2741

Igrom wrote:: For the record, I was the one who had doubts about Tim - now that I'm out of the equation, I think his poll should resume (subtract one "no", because I haven't cancelled my vote). The poll is already due, by the way.

I was told to wait for Xaso so that is what I'll do.

Posts : 13101

It's after lunch now.

In my opinion it's not right to say "it's just one duel". I could also script in one ff and say "it's just one ff". I don't want to say you scripted or put you in those lines. I just want to point out, that this kind of excuse doesn't fit it. It is the fact, that you're mentally even able to do such thing, of which you say yourself, that it's dishonest. Especially for Igrom I guess it disqualifies you as a player. Other people may accept, that it happened once, and that you won't ever do it again.

And that's what we all expect from you, I guess: No lying, be honest (like I said in the other topic: rather one or two harsh words, than hiding yourself)! Generally and on server in fights. And it would be wrong to never duel again (Idk if you're implying that by saying "participating"), in opposite: we want to duel you often, in order to see you being the good and honest friend, we think you are.

Basically most people want to have you back, they also tend to let the past be past, though they will have an eye on you. The last thing to get past now is the poll. There is still one question open: Which rank?
There haven't been enough yes-votes to get 75% in favor, which is the member pass rate. That's why I was proposing recruit rank.
But the poll wasn't a regular one. So I was asking for opinions. I'm also up for letting you have any other rank. But I guess recruit or white flame would be good compromices.
But there is little respond on that topic. Many have voiced their opinions, but no-one yet - but Lucifer, who said it would be my decision - has made efforts to find a solution.

So I guess we have to wait a little more... Or do you have an idea Timmy? I mean, it's kind of secured now, that you can return. So I'd say consider yourself a SoL and give your opinion like a SoL member. Smile

I also want to use this topic to apologize once more. This topic was very awkward and it didn't serve it's purpose. I fear it risked the friendship we had, but I'm looking forward to put that right again,maybe I can catch you on XFire. I still think you would be a win for the clan and a good company for it's members! None of us is perfect... Especially not me... Smile

Jedi Master Posts : 942

I was proposing recruit rank as well. It was my way of compromising and hoping Igrom would be okay with at least that.

I still stand by him being recruit if the poll does pass.

Posts : 13101

Lord_Draco wrote:: It was my way of compromising and hoping Igrom would be okay with at least that.

Same here... But it didn't work out... Sad

Jedi Knight Posts : 2741

My rank does not matter to me very much, I got yellow once and I can do it again, perhaps even further. Recruit or white is perfectly fine for me if it makes it easier on you.

Posts : 13101

Well, maybe I should open another poll: "Tim for white or recruit?"

Jedi Knight Posts : 2741

I'd be one hell of a skilled recruit haha Very Happy

Sure that sounds good to me!

Posts : 13101

Ok, so be it. Recruit and we can put an end to this discussion. Zelah might fight you (if he doesn't succeed against Axel) or Girin, when he gets recruited.
I say welcome. I will also update your poll topic.

Jedi Knight Posts : 2741

Thanks Xaso, and thanks SoL for giving me this opportunity Very Happy

It won't be wasted, thank you all so much!!