The "Name"

First topic message reminder :

Guys, I know this was coming soon, so I think I should go ahead and talk about it before we go any farther into other topics.

I been thinking, this whole mess is because of a "name". Alot of grudges, lags, lames, insulting, and immaturity over a "name". I understand completely why we are defending our title, but I will explain my side of things, since this has been on my mind for a long while.

I suggest we get a new name. That means new tags, new ranks (if any ranks, but that won't be discussed unless we agree on a new name), and some changes.

Now, the reasons: For one, as I just mentioned, Outcast is hating us, and acting immature because we have the clan tag ]=ATS=[. Now I know we shouldn't give in and let him keep the tag, cause then we are admitting ATS is his clan. But look of what trouble this is getting us. First lames, then the lag wars, then the insults, and now we are trying to patch things up. But they continue to act immature, and being greedy. So to end this all, and we can leave him to his server, and we don't have to be bothered by him ever again, is to change our name. This would end all.

Another reason is what we are. Yes we are ATS. But maybe we are more. We continue saying a clan is the members, so maybe we are more than ATS. Maybe we are better. Maybe we CAN be more. We already have a new start and a new beginning from splitting from Outcast, but maybe we should change our name to represent our change. To show we are more than what we seem. If you can't get what I am saying, I am saying we outgrew ATS. xD

For example, we are a butterfly. When in ATS we were the caterpillar. Now we were the cocoon when we split from Outcast, and started growing into something more brilliant as we grew closer and closer together, and our clan grew. Maybe with a name change, we will show how much as a clan we GREW.

Another reason is ..... well I am a bit tired of people associating us with Outcast, cause we have the name ATS. But that is a personal reason, so you can ignore this.

Well I like to hear people's opinions. Post your opinion and your vote. I am putting the poll to last a week, so vote by then please.

Nick, you are doing wonders here. You are explaining what exactly I been feeling for the past few weeks. Are you psychic? o.o


I think the time of talk is over. Please try to post your answer, or vote it.

Yes, or No?


I said yes, and I already explained my feelings.

well nick, we arent an island here.
we dont even try, like outcast who ignores the rest of the world.

i dont only care for what things are, but for what they are seen as. and i fear that things will be seen very different than they are.
We still have the chance to get this clear.
not taking demands would give that chance away, and let them spread their propaganda further. they will further spread lies about us.
when we change the name, one version will be left, if we dont take some demands. a version that let this seem like: some naggers left a clan, and made a new one
instead of the truth: sincere and supressed persons kicked the tyrans out and restored former values.

morally your right nick. if we want peace, we should just give it. and done. that would mean change our name and let happen what may. we would be jesus if you so want. we let anything occure to us to finally and in every way show our complete superiority... to those who are able to see it.
and you know that there were only few ppl who saw it... and it didnt help jesus at all.

but we have the possibility for a victory. to not die for what we stand for. we could just bring this to an end which paves the golden road for us. we dont have to be the clan of suffering for its values.
we could make a shiny triumph.

its like fighting someone in a competition. and in the instance you could win, you stop and break up, only to not hurt and show that you arent only physically but mentally superior. what will happen then is that ur opponent just tears you down.
and no-one except you, will know who is the better fighter.
but u are not an island. everyone will estimate u as the loser. you will be handled like one, until you feel like one.

we have the chance to decide how the future will look at this. we shouldnt just let this chance give to random ppl out there

Ok let me ask you this Xasomur... Why do we need to fight? We didn't start it. We can show that we are the better people, and just... walk away. So what if he insults us. What does that gain him? Nothing. Nothing will be gain, but we will move on and gain everything, not him.

We shouldn't fight. This isn't a "war". This isn't some fight we have to win. We can let it GO. There is no reason to play Outcast's game. We are our own clan now. We make the rules, not him. Let us show that. Let us show him we don't need to worry about him.

You know what will happen if we show him we don't care about him? That we moved on? That we don't think him as a threat, as a nuisance anymore? He will realize.. we are stronger than him. And better than him. He will never, ever admit it, but personally, I think we won this battle a long time ago. It is him that continues to pay the immature game. And it is time for us to say "Enough". We need to MOVE ON. That is what I am trying to point out. We should not live in the past anymore. We need to forget it. Start anew.

Jesus didn't lose the battle, though; he was victorious. Even though everyone who killed him is dead and forgotten now, his legacy lives on and billions of people worship him. He is the focus of the largest religion in the world.

Xasomur wrote:

morally your right nick. if we want peace, we should just give it. and done.

What I'm saying is it shouldn't be about wanting peace. We should not even consider that. We should do what's right for us. We should not give nor ask for anything. If you think changing our name is giving them something, then they still have power over you.

People can believe what they want about something. But if they have access to firsthand information, they can discover the truth for themselves. All we have to do is make that information available.

Outcast's clan is only one group of people. Knowing Outcast, he won't bring us up. He will respond with lies when other people ask about us. If we don't interact with them, there's no reason for people to ask these questions.

Essentially what I'm saying is that if you live your words, no one can defeat you. Changing our name might undermine our legitimacy in the eyes of Outcast's clan, but that's where the loss of respect ends. And I don't care about their respect. Make the history available, and anyone interested can find it. If we PROVE that we are better than they are, it doesn't matter what they say we are. Not when people can easily access us.

And I agree with Mereel. PROVE that Outcast isn't important to you by letting go. The more you want to get something from him, the more you engage him, the more you acknowledge him; the more power he gets in denying you. He is inconsequential to me, and if we all treat him that way, it will become reality, and THEN we will have truly won.

This isn't a topic for the Council. This is a clan-wide issue. I've been pointing that out since before we even decided on having the Council. Issues like this do not require special insight, it's up to the entire community; it's too important.

For peace, I vote yes, feel free to discount my 1 vote though.

i dont want to change name

i fully agree with kernow, and i m glad that i am not again the only one with a special opinion ^^
@ nick
jesus died. he had nothing of his victory. thats what i mean. maybe somewhen when this clan dies, it will represent in the thoughts of few who remember its initials the purity we actually stand for. and the other, wo dont know the initials will just forget about it.
but we dont built this clan up to die again.
i am NOT for a martyrdom

and dont forget, THAT they still have power over us. like EVERYONE out there has power over us. spreading rumours and bad reputation IS a power. and it works blandly.

this is not the time for spiritual soaring flights... it is the time for fundamental livelihood.
i dont choose to die like jesus.
i choose to live like the american settlers, expelling the british suppressors

read kernows (long) post for the reasons

.... You guys can not let Outcast go. This is what he lives off of. Attention. He knows that we can not stand him, and we are trying to get through to him. We are playing his game. We don't need to. Why are we worrying about their opinion? They are NOT in this clan. They are their own little group on their server. We should stop worrying of what Outcast would say or do if he found out. So what? He can't do anything. He stays on his server where he has his power. Why do we need to go to his server? Many that go to his server come to ours. What are we trying to recruit his recruits? Who is the bad guy then? We should stop even thinking of Outcast, and worry about the HERE and the NOW.

Outcast is in his own little world. He can't do nothing. He is a set example of someone that gets too involved in a game. He holds so many grudges. And no matter how hard we try to show him we are good, he won't listen. Again, why are we worrying of what Outcast thinks of us? Is he a judge in a contest? No. That is for new members and players on our server to decide, not him.

And you misunderstood me when I said new recruits don't matter. They do, but HIS new recruits don't. Let them decide if they like him. We should worry about the players on our server first before we worry about anything. If they join Outcast's "gang" , then so be it. It doesn't matter. Like us, they will find out in time that he is not all he seems. Look at Azzy and Boss. Despite in their weird way, then been telling us exactly what we know now. Did we listen? No. How do expect them to react? But we found out much later that he was full of lies and corruption. So we left. Simple.

So a name is just a name. No one has ownership over it. But, in the end, their is a time when clans outgrow their name, and get a new one. I seen it quite alot in my times of games. We are grander than ATS will ever be. We can start anew, and make our "new" name special, and something that represents US.



P.S. Kernow... Don't you EVER.... EVER say that I moved this topic for personal and selfish gain..... I WILL NOT stand been insulted like that. You understand? I did what I thought right. This matter is this clan matter, not the council. I thought it was, but I was wrong. So don't ever insult me again. Got it? Get it? GOOD. >:/

lol, if you so DONT care about outcast, so why do you want to change the name?
let him nag like he want, we dont need to change them.

u have on emajot mistake: we didnt leave ats.
outcast was kicked out. and the leaders followed him.

but kernow said that, maybe you should read it again.

we are the formar ats values
THEY grew out of it... not we.

Mereel wrote:

They are their own little group on their server. He can't do anything. He stays on his server where he has his power. Why do we need to go to his server? Many that go to his server come to ours. What are we trying to recruit his recruits? Who is the bad guy then? We should stop even thinking of Outcast, and worry about the HERE and the NOW.

Outcast is recruiting in a frenzy. Two applications posted yestarday by completely new players who didn't even enter server were accepted today, and the recruits that are about 1 month possibly plus old in their faction have never come to our server as a commodity. Master Synato, Starkiller, CowsRTasty, Sebasssss, Germo, Bomba - Substantiation for this is because Outcast has threatened everyone with a ban and exile if they visit our server and/or forum. His propoganda has taken control of just short of ten people in less than a month. How many in a year? How many will think of what we are? Its not a bad thing to insist on truth and clarity to these recruits. Like i said dude:

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:

I have never cared for outcasts, Max's, Herny's, Abrum's, Sylba's, Kyle's, Error's, Ulrich's opinions. Its not about THEM I agree, it is about the people they instruct and bring up - the people they teach to irrationally hate.
Outcast is a ruthlessly compulsive selective listener. He is a cunning genious with propaganda and an inconsolable dictator. His ablity to attract new players to this game (who are the inheritors of JK2) is unrivalled. It is not about Outcast it is about what Outcast can do and what they're automatic reputation as ATS grants them to accomplish propoganda wise to the future players of JK2.

Mereel wrote:

HIS new recruits don't. Let them decide if they like him. If they join Outcast's "gang" , then so be it. It doesn't matter. Like us, they will find out in time that he is not all he seems. Look at Azzy and Boss. Despite in their weird way, then been telling us exactly what we know now. Did we listen? No. How do expect them to react? But we found out much later that he was full of lies and corruption.

Boss IS a lier, ruthless oppertunitist and although a guy you can get on with he doesn't hold our virtues in heart. I don't trust him after he lied to me about hacking Outcast's forum and server. Azzy is a brilliant bloke and I respect him well enough to agree with you specific to him. But like I said and like YOU say realisation is dependant and varied on TIME, and in most cases the TIME it takes is a long time:

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:

ATS is arguably the most famous clan in JK2. To known players it is infamous because of Outcast's actions to them, but how many people stay around long enough in this game long term enough to realise this dictatorship?

Only the intelligent and rationally argumentative ATS ones are the ones who realise this in time and possibly enable others to see it also - These ATS debatists are about 1 in 20......ATS members. One in 100 JK2 players.

I am writing a seperate topic for your last point, as it is my main point

Mereel: https://soljk2.forumotion.com/council-discussion-f13/working-steps-of-the-council-t358.htm - I said vested intrest perhaps I little rashly I agree, its a word i used without full realisation of its consequence. However the point of council still stands to discuss their opinions first because they give the most rational and intelligent viewpoint. It was actually Nick who moved the topic and not you so I apologise. I thought i'd comment then read and found out it wasn'y you who moved. - Anyway Nick now I know it was you just keep in mind it would've been moved here eventually after all council has given opinions. I know the motive was just enthusiasm and motivation for argument participation so nvm....

You are still worrying about what Outcast is... And who he recruiting... Let it go man. Let it GO. We are not here to discuss about Outcast. We are here to discuss about us.


So I am calling a vote. No more talk. We can talk after we vote.

All that think we need a name change, say yes and explain why.
All that don't think we need a name change, say no and explain why.
No one try to convince another to change to their side. Vote now. We have discussed alot.


P.S. I was the one to move the topic. But Nick moved it to a better section.

lol
this is wrong.
we are collecting arguments, so that ppl are able to choose.
it is just wrong to say first vote than talk -.-

the question is not IF we should change the name, it is HOW and WHEN
and just changing it like that now isnt the way we should go

and to you mereel, if you would just leave outcast behind, then why u see the need to change? there are even less reasons. if we wouldnt care for their opinion at all, we wouldnt even consider a namechange.

you still dont place any (counter) arguments, that arent contradicting -_-

Mereel.

1. You obviously haven't read my posts in proper critical detail like I'd hope you would for something as radical as this.

Mereel wrote:

You are still worrying about what Outcast is... And who he recruiting... Let it go man. Let it GO. We are not here to discuss about Outcast. We are here to discuss about us.

Apart from completely ignore my comments (suggesting what......laziness? out argued?), you still think I care about outcast. I said this twice, once in my speech, once in excluded bold, and a third time here.

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:

I have never cared for outcasts, Max's, Herny's, Abrum's, Sylba's, Kyle's, Error's, Ulrich's opinions. Its not about THEM I agree, it is about the people they instruct and bring up - the people they teach to irrationally hate.
Outcast is a ruthlessly compulsive selective listener. He is a cunning genious with propaganda and an inconsolable dictator. His ablity to attract new players to this game (who are the inheritors of JK2) is unrivalled. It is not about Outcast it is about what Outcast can do and what they're automatic reputation as ATS grants them to accomplish propoganda wise to the future players of JK2.

You just are ignorning me and Xaso who have the most debatist and reasoning form of disagreements. You would rather everyone say 'YES' to a thing they don't fully understand and/or have only heard one side of the debate tha for everyone to gain an equally sided viewpoint.

I think it is ironic you talk about objectivity, moral fairness, and it being all about us. When it is US (Me, Xaso, BDL tho he didn't argue, and potentially others....) that you are excluding from the debate and preventing us form arguing.

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:

I am writing a seperate topic for your last point, as it is my main point Smile

Did you get that far? Knowing I had more to write and more to give to this debate and STILL trying to close the discussion? If anything suggests ure argumentative selfishness in this debate it is this action.

You continue to insult, when I have yet to see you guys point out 1) where me and Nick are wrong and 2) give valid excuses to why we should either wait, or not change our name. And I did read, but you continue to talk about Outcast like he matters. So am I really wrong? No.

If you insult me 1 more time, I WILL IGNORE YOU.

I think we should make another choice to "Wait It Out A Bit Longer" so we can see how everything turns out, for example, Outcast gives up, his forums and server is completely dead, etc. But I don't think we should make this choice yet based on some important points Kernow mentioned.

If I was one of the people who said no, I'd remember that you cannot ignore people very easily in this setting. Some bad colors might finally show in some leaders, now that 'common members' are outvoting them, making it equal. Demoracy is speaking, if you close topics like this, good luck with your clan.

mereel, stop threatening us! you are insulting us with ignorance!

mereel wrote:

You continue to insult, when I have yet to see you guys point out 1) where me and Nick are wrong and 2) give valid excuses to why we should either wait, or not change our name. And I did read, but you continue to talk about Outcast like he matters. So am I really wrong? No.

If you insult me 1 more time, I WILL IGNORE YOU.

we DID answer, and you ignore

Xasomur wrote:

i fully agree with kernow, and i m glad that i am not again the only one with a special opinion ^^
@ nick
jesus died. he had nothing of his victory. thats what i mean. maybe somewhen when this clan dies, it will represent in the thoughts of few who remember its initials the purity we actually stand for. and the other, wo dont know the initials will just forget about it.
but we dont built this clan up to die again.
i am NOT for a martyrdom

and dont forget, THAT they still have power over us. like EVERYONE out there has power over us. spreading rumours and bad reputation IS a power. and it works blandly.

this is not the time for spiritual soaring flights... it is the time for fundamental livelihood.
i dont choose to die like jesus.
i choose to live like the american settlers, expelling the british suppressors

read kernows (long) post for the reasons

Xasomur wrote:

lol, if you so DONT care about outcast, so why do you want to change the name?
let him nag like he want, we dont need to change them.

u have on emajot mistake: we didnt leave ats.
outcast was kicked out. and the leaders followed him.

but kernow said that, maybe you should read it again.

we are the formar ats values
THEY grew out of it... not we.

but i will summarize it for u again: you both are wrong in the point that we shouldnt care about them and that they dont have power about us, we are no island in this game. and see what kernow wrote, we live from our reputation... and YOU care alot about it, you care more about our and your reputation then about fairness and fair play, when its about banning !
so dont tell me we were wrong

and i tell it once again: when you would give SHIT about outcast, then WHY THE HELL are you still considering to change the name??? one of the major reasons is that he is nagging about the name. if you would ignore THAT instead of kernows and mine arguments, you wouldnt even THINK about changing the name

and it has a fundamental reason, where you still think wrong about:
WE DID NOT LEAVE ATS
WE KICKED OUTCAST OUT OF THIS CLAN!

and again: it is not so hard for us to take those demands, and they would just finish every possible conflict in the future. we would be secured from his propaganda, which he spreads.

NO-ONE will believe us when we say, that we are the real heritage of ats-ideas, when we change our name like nothing! We can EITHER MAINTAIN the name, or let Outcast make fence-mending.
That is why we have to take demands. We only have to figure out how they will have to look like exactly.

Or, if you really want to argue with total ignorance of outcasts side, we have to maintain our name. we kicked him out.

and in a short version for you, once again for the 100. time: we cant change the name because it is what we earned in the last 2 months.
we give all the fights, all the argues, all the efforts in that time lost. lost to the ignorance and greed of outcast.

we cant change the name unless we get of outcast a sign of his subordination.

(lol and and when you want closes things as answers to nicks, read my last posts they got even @ nick in it... you should find it)

-_-

Edit:
@ abrum
we will surely change the name, but we have to maintain the image that we expelled outcast, and that the truth lies on our side.
this isnt an issue we can run over just like that.
we wont maintain the name if the members dont want
but we wont leave them mal-informated
that is democracy: a information from all sides
something u cant get at outcasts side

and mereel tries to get this through before he has to admit that he is outargued in here

I rather enjoy being trusted by everyone, to tell the truth. E-Wars can be fun but really, I don't want to be mean. Sadly, being on this side would mean no trust form Outy.

Xasomur wrote:

if we'd agree on a namechange, than he need to agree to let his old friends know about us in a neutral way, let them know about the forum, and about the server, that is only fair... and if he still provides the torch of the fair play, that would be at least ONE of the conditions he would have to fulfill!

Xasomur wrote:

our way to go is to take demands from outcasts clan. We are the one with the more members, with the better server, more recruits, we have the values, we dont have to defend ourselves with bans and exiles, we arent hated by the whole jk2 community. we HAVE to take demands. It is the sign of our victory.

he has to fulfill our demands, then we change our name. it is the only way to finnsih this whole conflict in the apropiate way.

We here, as the winners, have to think about the demands we take on them.
1. he has to stop to call us any names (stealers/fakers whatever), other then the new one we will think of
2. he has to stop to ignore our existance
3. he has to inform all his new applicants about the recent history and the splitting
4. he has to inform his new applicants about the existance of our site and server
5. he has to infrom the old and casual members about our new site and server

this is the way we have to go anyway

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:

The truth will get lost if we change the name. So we change our name, a newbie comes on and wants to join Outcast's ATS? Explain how he'll know by some psychic knowledge of the tears and sweat and pain that we endured to turn this clan around towards a good path.

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:

Conceeding to outcast allows unlimited amounts of recruits to be brought up like we were

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:

"Yea they went against Outcast and they had their time....but they eventually changed their name.....guess Outcast is the leader and owner of ATS after all....". IT SYMBOLICALLY, INARGUABLY, INEVIDABLY SUGGESTS THAT WE WERE FAKE AND OUTCAST WAS RIGHT. This is what we fought against, we will give that all up???

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:

I will agree with tag change if outcast follows procedures as Xaso specifies.
1. he has to stop to call us any names (stealers/fakers whatever), other then the new one we will think of
2. he has to stop to ignore our existance
3. he has to inform all his new applicants about the recent history and the splitting
4. he has to inform his new applicants about the existance of our site and server
5. he has to infrom the old and casual members about our new site and server

Xasomur wrote:

and dont forget, THAT they still have power over us. like EVERYONE out there has power over us. spreading rumours and bad reputation IS a power. and it works blandly.

You say you guys don't care, but you do. Let me also point this out:

Kernow, isn't it you that goes to their server, with a bind saying "For truth go to our website soljk2.forumotion.com"? Aren't you the one worry about what his members worry about us? What does it matter?

You guys continue to say you don't care, but you do. All you guys want is his "approval" or him admitting defeat. Don't you get it? When we discovered what we were, what we can be, and created what we have so far, in my book, we won a LONG time ago. Why should we continue going on like Outcast matters? He doesn't matter. He is 1 player, while WE ARE MANY.

And you think he has ruin many players? No he hasn't. They can give a rat's ass about him. If anything, he is the one in ruins. We are strong if we stick together and admit OUTCAST IS NOTHING. He fits his name. He is an Outcast. From everyone.

Now I will no long continue talking about Outcast. He is not involved in this topic. This topic is about changing our name. So let us focus on that.

So far, from what I gathered, the people that say yes are:

Me
Vort
Hektor
Nick
Blackwolf
Phoenix
Abrum
Blue
Sebbat

People that say no:

BDL
Xasomur
Kernow

Anyone else that hasn't voted?



P.S. I haven't been out-argued. Remove Outcast from your arguments, and you guys have no argument. So don't be talking like you won. You have far from won. So don't insult me with YOUR ignorance. And I threaten insulters, not debaters.

Oh Mereel I do care - but not about Outcast. Do I really need to re-quote for the 4th time?
Why hasn't everyone come by with step by step dissagreement to my full points proposal, quote by quote response proves critical argument.

I go to their server because I feel that people need to gain a balanced and even-sided explanation about the situation. Outcast confuses people, we clarify. Mereel aren't you the one that goes there in 'padawan' name doing the same thing? Doing it in padawan name DOES confuse people. If we are ATS why don't we wear our tags to prove it. I see nothing but cowardice and irony in the use of defualt names in servers. -_-
What does it matter? Ok for the fourth time then.....

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:

I have never cared for Outcast's, Max's, Herny's, Abrum's, Sylba's, Kyle's, Error's, Ulrich's opinions. Its not about THEM I agree, it is about the people they instruct and bring up - the people they teach to irrationally hate.
Outcast is a ruthlessly compulsive selective listener. He is a cunning genious with propaganda and an inconsolable dictator. His ablity to attract new players to this game (who are the inheritors of JK2) is unrivalled. It is not about Outcast it is about what Outcast can do and what they're automatic reputation as ATS grants them to accomplish propoganda wise to the future players of JK2.

Its not about Outcast but what his status as 'ATS' would grant him to accomplish about everyone.

I think Xaso and I differ in main arguments, you don't need to put us under the same disagreeing roof just because we both disagree with you : Xaso wants Outcast mainly to give us the statisfaction that we were right. I will admit the fact that Xaso's main point is certainly suggestive of personal issues of Outcast, i see your point there Mereel.

But what I suggest in my full point proposal is the consequences of our leaving the name, what we would be letting Outcast create all over again, what he would be turning the next generation of JK2 players into: He would be creating the aggresive players who are singled out and strike back in revenge to innocent ATS, the new recruits would be subject to the same confusing system. Let us acknoledge our unique movement against that system of facist propaganda and admit - when will another group of 30 or so ATS have the same intellectual rationality to do what we did?

Has anything like this happened before? Maybe - we don't know because the only person with the answers are Outcast. If it has happened the people must've left ATS or 'the name' as you merely call it and died out. They have been erased from history, not just ATS, but JK2 history! If it hasn't happened before its more reason to stick to the name that we are (for the first time ever) defending with fierce moral passion.

He is one player? This one player - as quoted above for the fourth time - can create 100s of ideological little soldiers. Disagree? Then:

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:

Master Synato, Starkiller, CowsRTasty, Sebasssss, Germo, Bomba, Starkiller, Dmraz - Substantiation for this is because Outcast has threatened everyone with a ban and exile if they visit our server and/or forum. His propoganda has taken control of just short of ten people in less than a month. How many in a year?

I wonder if you would include Abrum if he has voted no...just a curiosity.
Hektor's arguments:

Hektor wrote:

Sure

-_-
Blackwolf, Vort, Seb, Nick, Phoenix need to answer - or would you rather support a one sided presentation of argument like Outcast?
Blue obviously has read a bit and he opts to wait.
BDL needs to understand more. -.-

Mereel all you do is oppose us with hostility. Look back to who uses the first '-.-' face and who writes off our arguments as fickle 'worry'. How do you think it makes us feel to write lots of arguments in much word form only to be replied to in the perceptive - "you worry too much". Just giving you our perception dude, and it really helps when people do text by text analysis - i know its hard work but for this kind of topic I wouldn't accept anything else.

THIS is why I wanted a council discussion - becuase here my vote and arguments are being drawn equal to Hektor's. Is that fairness? -_-

I said i do care about outcast! He is spreading bad fame and rumours!
and those things harm our reputation... and that is what u care about as well -.-

And you care about outcast as well!
why else are you thinking about Namechange? there is no reason for us to change the name if outcast wouldnt be nagging -.-

because we kicked him out of ATS!
We did not leave!

You didnt even notice this!
we do anwer your posts, we dont have the same arguments, just like u and ncik neither