The "Name"

First topic message reminder :

Guys, I know this was coming soon, so I think I should go ahead and talk about it before we go any farther into other topics.

I been thinking, this whole mess is because of a "name". Alot of grudges, lags, lames, insulting, and immaturity over a "name". I understand completely why we are defending our title, but I will explain my side of things, since this has been on my mind for a long while.

I suggest we get a new name. That means new tags, new ranks (if any ranks, but that won't be discussed unless we agree on a new name), and some changes.

Now, the reasons: For one, as I just mentioned, Outcast is hating us, and acting immature because we have the clan tag ]=ATS=[. Now I know we shouldn't give in and let him keep the tag, cause then we are admitting ATS is his clan. But look of what trouble this is getting us. First lames, then the lag wars, then the insults, and now we are trying to patch things up. But they continue to act immature, and being greedy. So to end this all, and we can leave him to his server, and we don't have to be bothered by him ever again, is to change our name. This would end all.

Another reason is what we are. Yes we are ATS. But maybe we are more. We continue saying a clan is the members, so maybe we are more than ATS. Maybe we are better. Maybe we CAN be more. We already have a new start and a new beginning from splitting from Outcast, but maybe we should change our name to represent our change. To show we are more than what we seem. If you can't get what I am saying, I am saying we outgrew ATS. xD

For example, we are a butterfly. When in ATS we were the caterpillar. Now we were the cocoon when we split from Outcast, and started growing into something more brilliant as we grew closer and closer together, and our clan grew. Maybe with a name change, we will show how much as a clan we GREW.

Another reason is ..... well I am a bit tired of people associating us with Outcast, cause we have the name ATS. But that is a personal reason, so you can ignore this.

Well I like to hear people's opinions. Post your opinion and your vote. I am putting the poll to last a week, so vote by then please.

ok... i deleted my first version of this post.
it was one sentence and it was disrespectful. i want to aplogize.

@ kernow
yes u summarize it good.
i want to underline that still WE didnt left ats, WE ARE ats, outcast is just the man with a name and a tag in his hand. if we give him the name, it will look like we give him the clan too. but we dont. we keep the clan.
that is my major point.
and we have to clarify it somehow. our word wont be enough. ppl only believe it as soon as outcast admits it.
as long as he doest admit we should use our greater power and just maintain the name and make him cooperate.

@mereel.
u ignore me. this what you do, is only harder done by outcast. really. one last time i will summarize.
I WANT TO CHANGE THE fly a kite NAME! BUT ONLY UNER CONDITIONS.
and as u can read at what i wrote to kernow: the name is a symbol. a symbol for all, for the clan, the community, the values, the spirit and everything.
we need to clarify to him, and all the world, not only to our little bubble, what is still ours and what is his.
his is a empty name. we have the content.

its about truth, justice, equality, right, clearness, and peace.
our way will secure peace for a long site, security from outcasts lies.
and its ez...
you have had no arguments at all. u arent even arguing. you are only ignoring.
-.-

@blue
you are actually right. such a possibilty should exist. but now its too late. mereel done his game if ignorance on this... and i dont even know why.
i see nick wants to secure completely white west, that we dont take advantage of our force. he wants to do a martyrdom.
but i am not ready for such.
the other just want to get this done anyway, not caring for politics and fair view.

@ abrum

yes, you have a good heart. and i still believe you are really a good guy.
ats promiced me to be a peaceful paradise...
but the leader was outcast, impersonating a tyran... or, to stay in that metaphor, the devil if u so want.
because i wanted actually to play in such a paradise, i put this effort into this.
the paradise remained.
the devil is expelled.
and he will have to admit that.
and when u can help that, we all would be very pleased.

but he doesnt own ats. he owns its name. a name which got parted from its community and its values under the rule of outcast.
a ATS which describes outcast, doesnt describe the clan, which we are, at all.
a ATS which describes the community and the values, doesnt describe outcast.

the dilemma is here. profane right vs divine right to stay in the metaphor.
we have to fulfill the profane right and give him the name back
but he has to fulfill the divine right, and admit the disaster.

I voted yes in the poll as i also described earlier in the topic.

In my eyes some of u can't give up the glorious times Outcast created for u. Many of u has seen Outcast as a great leader which showed u guys the path for playing jk2 this way as u do now. Fair play, showing honour to others etc. All that which the old ATS clan stood for. But as i have seen many of u have visited Outcast's forum and keeps visiting his server. For what reason?

We made a new ATS why trying to keep contacting him by visting his forum and server? We got no reasons for that. As Mereel said by doing that we just plays his game, and showing that we actually cares about his oppinion, and why do u guys want his oppinion?

ATS is just a name it aint the thing which keeps us togehter. The thing there keep us togehter is friendship, fair play, showing the path for new players, learning them how to play etc. The name ATS is a well known name indeed. But just beacuse it's a well known name doesn't mean we should keep it. The name ATS hasn't giving us anything more than trouble after Outcast aint leader of this ATS anymore.

By changing our name we can show finally we doesn't care about him we don't want his oppinion we want to play the game we want to do what we belive in. By changing our name we would prove it that we aint a part of Outcast anymore that we are an individual clan with our own oppinion which takes our decsission as a democrati.

but there is more connected to the name as u think.
and if we just give it outcast back, he will get everything, and we make the new start.

but fact is, we just do what ats was supposed to be.
outcast not.

and when u say it would only symbolize us moving on without outcast, it is not fully true.
it also symbolizes leaving our history to outcast, because he will lie to the old members about us.
it says leaving the recent conflicts behind and get lost. because he will just tell everyone we left him. but we explelled him. no-one will believe what we say... even mereel sees that wrong. the truth about our improved ats will be lost.
it symbolizes that he didnt do any failure, when he can maintain his clan like he does it now, as he will tell only his opinion to the new recruits. another outcast-ats-bubble will happen... and we will let this occure.
it will symbolize we are a new clan. but we arent. we are a very old clan with long history. we are the former ats community. and he is just the tyran.

grimm read all the posts and u will see what else it symbolizes...
its bigger than most think

Gives me a headache, at least y'all know what it's like. Thank the Force for m8s

Edit: Sent a copy of this to Outcast... (What I said)

I'm back. I know you all missed me.

Kernow and Xaso, you don't understand the perspective of Mereel and me. If you did you wouldn't continue to make the arguments that you make. There are valid arguments on both sides, but they both assume a given perspective is the reality. Perspective is not reality. There is no reality, only perspective. Having said that, we could pursue any of the courses of action suggested here and still maintain a good, strong clan. Obviously, however, I feel that the opinion I agree with is the best choice.

The two reasonable choices I see are to either decide to keep our name indefinitely, or to change our name without condition (ie - asking nothing from Outcast).

Either we ARE ATS and we keep the name, or we're not ATS and we change the name.

Xasomur thinks we are ATS. If we are ATS, then changing our name - even under conditions from Outcast - is admitting defeat. We cannot change our name and still claim that we are ATS. This option is completely unreasonable.

It doesn't matter if you disagree with this option being unreasonable. Outcast will never agree to your terms. They don't matter to him. His power is not in diplomacy, he doesn't even know what diplomacy is. His power is in creating alternate realities with his words and being so committed to his word that others believe in him. He doesn't need us to give him the name, he already has it in his pretend world. Asking conditions from him to give him back the name would just be another thing he could add to the list of reasons we are fake. To him, we would be ransoming the ATS name. Sounds like terrorism to me. This option is out of the question, it will only backfire.

So now on to the two possible scenarios: keeping the name and claiming we are ATS, or changing the name and recognizing we are better than ATS. You can argue whichever way you want, but these are the only two available options. I'll explain why I think we are not ATS, and that we should change our name.

I used to think we were ATS too. It was when all that was left was us, and we rebuilt our clan. But it turns out that the clan we were in wasn't actually gone. The old leaders came back, and are continuing. If we keep our ATS name, and we ARE ATS, then what are they? The Rebels? I don't think so. Their ATS will be EXACTLY what ATS was when we were in it. We admit that ATS was ATS before all of this happened, but now we have the audacity to say that we are the true ATS? Even when another ATS that is the same as the old ATS is continuing on? I'm sorry, but we are not ATS. We are what we thought ATS should have been. But it never was.

We are better than the ATS of the past. We are better than Outcast's current ATS. If we are better, why are we afraid of letting go of a name that only weakens us? By all means, let the history stand. Make it easily accessible, show that we have ascended over the past. Provide our reasons for changing our name. But we need to decide soon. Because the longer we claim to be ATS, the more important it will become to keep our name, or we will seem to be hypocrites. I think the timing of this debate is adequate, that we wanted to make sure that our old leaders really intended to hold on to their dictatorial clan. Once we were sure that the old ATS was still alive, we realized we would have to move past it.

ATS is not strictly equivalent to fairness and freedom. There can be other clans that stand for the same things. The ATS we were in was in truth not about fairness and freedom, which is why we now exist. The difference between this situation and France is that the rulers had nowhere to go when the populace took control. In the media or on the internet, anyone can profess to have control. Outcast is already doing it and herding in the new recruits, we can't stop him from creating a new virtual reality where he is king once again. The old ATS lives, and it continues to be a prime example of hypocrisy and propaganda. Holding on to its name will not empower us, it will weaken us. If this is the level of revolution we claim it to be, let's prove our faith in ourselves by focusing on making ourselves the best we can and cutting ourselves loose from the corrupt system of the old ATS which still persists today. Let's move forward under only our own power.

Grimmjow tell me in brutal honestly that you read every single post in this thread please. If you can say yes to this I have no problem with your vote at all m8

I will ignore your first two paragraphs in good faith that the questions are just rhetorical and not actually standing. You know the answer from my posts I'm sure.

I can see that changing the name is one method of proving (TO OURSELVES ONLY) that we don't care about Outcast, but I just see too many cons with this method against the pros.
...........................................................................................................................

Grimmjow wrote:

ATS is just a name

Mereel wrote:

And why does everyone fears a name change? It is just a name.

Sebbat wrote:

we arent outcast, we arent his shit, we arent ATS.

Vort wrote:

ATS is just a name

Blackwolf wrote:

Ats tag scaresa me!

Ever wonder why I stand by the name? When others have left and encouraged me to follow, wheather it be to o.o, ZoF etc.... I have always stuck to what I believe in. I am a man of majority, whom follows the decision of his clanmates in the hopeful knowledge that my opinions are unified or defeated in the greater stregnth of the majority's strength.

Numbers are a voice that crush the dictatorship and small little petty voices (like mine here) that obviously have no moral significance compared to the undefeatable stregnth. Going against the grain is what deters people no-one wants to swim against the surf nor turn down a one-way road, no-one wants to fight the wind but rather fly with the strenth of it on your back - propelling you into infinate beyonds.

A man with a thousand words and infinite complexities is rendered obsolete to Ten men with nothing but nods and their conquering support.

This is also why I am a man of democracy as well as majority. Democracy ensures majority but it also ensures that the argument is summarized in simplistic and convincing forum by those of higher debatist skill, argued ruthlessly and exhaustingly to acheive an unified understand. Which the rest of the clan can understand AND THEN vote on.

............................................................................................

Jerusalem. A city disputed throughout human history in the last 2000 years for its religious and symbolic representation as the spiritual center of Christianity, Judaism and Muslim. my example of of the importance of the name and its reasons for keeping it are in example of the fierce defense of this name by so many varying cultures and peoples.

My example is 1187. The passionate Chrisitan defense against the opposing Arabic forces lead by 'Ṣalāḥ ad-Dīn Yūsuf ibn Ayyūb' - probably western histories most respected oppnents, known for his chilvary and respect for his enemy. Balian of Ibelin was the deputy turned moral King in charge of the cities defense.
As film, book and history dictates to me after much death and slaughter and many days of seiged defense against staggering odds the city remained defended by the christians. The walls were broken but the Saladin was still denied access, after sweat and blood, tears and desperation Saladin conceived to offer terms with Balian. Balian realised that they had defended succesfully and that his opponent was offering terms. Saladin, was fearful of a pyrrhic victory yes, but ultimately was showing his mutual respect.

The two leaders met outside the gates of the great city and discusses as follows:

History wrote:

Saladin was able to knock down portions of the walls, but was unable to gain entrance to the city. Balian then rode out to meet with the sultan, to report to him that the defenders would rather kill each other and destroy the city than see it taken by force. After negotiations, it was decided that the city would be handed over peacefully, and that Saladin would free seven thousand men for 30000 bezants; two women or ten children would be permitted to take the place of one man for the same price. Balian handed over the keys to the Tower of David...on October 2

Rumoured and depicted in the film release: Bailin turns to Saladin and asked "What is it that is so important about Jerusalem anyway?"

Saladin says "Nothing....." and walks away. But then he stops, turns around and with a gesture of passion and a slight smile says "everything" before continuing back to his army.

To me the name and clan tag of ATS is nothing.......and everything. It is something that you cannot "own" not one that you can "lead" - but it is something I can defend, something I can consider as part of me, and I a part of it. It is nothing but a name i agree, but the significance of that name is in infinate stregnth.
Non-materialistic yes and perhaps the morals can be carried outside of this name. But for me (as John Proctor efficently portrays in Miller's "The Crucible") the name is the soul. It is the essence of our characteristic and the name will always attribute that characteristic, no matter who defends it it will be in the hearts and souls of whoever considers it a part of them.


Now the majority want to move on, abandoning the name that I've stood by for just under 10 months. I ask you this - Does ATS mean more to you than an Outcast? Does it have soul and spirit that one cannot bypass with rule and possesive ownership? If you agree then prove it and keep this beacon of hope called ATS.

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:

Now the majority want to move on, abandoning the name that I've stood by for just under 10 months. I ask you this - Does ATS mean more to you than an Outcast? Does it have soul and spirit that one cannot bypass with rule and possesive ownership?

ATS means more to me than Outcast. But that does not have to be answered with the same answer to "Does it have soul and spirit that one cannot bypass with rules and possessive ownership." To this question I respond, absolutely not. The spirit is what one cannot bypass, not the name. I am beginning to hate the name, largely for what it tricked me into believing it was. I am legitimately excited to leave it behind.

Xasomur wrote:

@mereel
you have had no arguments at all. u arent even arguing. you are only ignoring.
:/

Fine, you want to truly be ignored? Ignored. :/

Don't insult me. Your arguments mean NOTHING to me now. I did read, but if you really want to know if I truly ignored you, then fine. You are from now on ignored. I will not debate with insulters. I debate with debaters.

Nick you are totally right. Why is it you always say what I feel, but more simple and pretty. xD

So that is another Yes. We need more to vote.

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:

Grimmjow I will ignore your first two paragraphs in good faith that the questions are just rhetorical and not actually standing. You know the answer from my posts I'm sure.

Who is ignoring posts now? Hmmm? :/'

nick is right because he has arguments
u didnt have...
he grabs up my arguments, and shows me where my perception is wrong...
you dont...

but let me read kernows one yet...
and dont insult ME further :/

Also Kernow, you cannot claim to be about equality if you think that Hektor's vote or the other "nodders" votes are less valuable than yours. Whenever I lose by poll, even when you did the same thing Mereel did with this with the obstacles issue - presenting a poll with only one side as the beginning, I still acknowledge that majority wins.

You have to let go of "value" when it comes to democracy; it is a sacrifice you must make. Millions of uninformed people vote in the United States for the president. That's how we elected Bush a second term. But you still have to accept the decision, because democracy in the long term is more important than a single decision.

I am all for people hearing the sides and then voting. But we are allowed to cancel here, and I think that suffices for having heard the different sides debate.

Yes, agreed with nick. If we make a new name then we can forge the dream that was ATS to that new name, we would be evolving our beliefs from what we thought was ATS, into a new clan where these beliefs can be solidified as being real and having exsistance. The ATS name we thought we signed up for was an illusion, and the morals and traits assumed were present amongst us were proven to be phony, however under a new clan tag, we can make it a reality.

With revolution, the future then begs evolution

I dont need to post more, cuz you said all, what i wanted to say .....
I want to change ATS tag, because i dont want to have anything with Outcast ... I dont want to care Outcast, but there are ppl, who insulted us, gave us to 'list of exiles' etc.
Change tag = be sifferent than Outcast is and we are ....

Ok so far the votes are...

Yes:

Me
Sebbat
Hektor
NickdeClaw
Blackwolf
Vort
Grimmjow
BlueNinja
Phoenix

No:

BDL
Kernow


Anyone that hasn't voted and said why, please do.

I voted yes too.

My reply to Nicks big post in mid page 6.

Ok Nick I did not specifiy - I sld've said "Reality is based on your own perception". To my reality I hate milk, do you? Doesn't matter though because milk tastes bad and always will. No matter what anyone else says it will always stay bad. However perhaps I am drinking the wrong milk...need to be shown another kind - I found out i don't like semi-skinned milk but I LOVE skinned milk. You see?

Nick wrote:

Xasomur thinks we are ATS. If we are ATS, then changing our name - even under conditions from Outcast - is admitting defeat. We cannot change our name and still claim that we are ATS. This option is completely unreasonable.

I think you misunderstand Xaso thinking we are defeated if Outcast takes the conditions. Getting practical and just explanations of truth from the minority are what we would consider beneficial. Outcast admitting his faults is a dream. Outcast admitting what happend - "I was believed to have been a bad leader and as such on the deletion of forum and server as test they feel me unfit for leadership" is only a slight self-sacrifice of pride that would accomplish such a greater amount of respect towards him.

Nick wrote:

Asking conditions from him to give him back the name would just be another thing he could add to the list of reasons we are fake. To him, we would be ransoming the ATS name. Sounds like terrorism to me. This option is out of the question, it will only backfire.

Asking conditions can be varied dude. To give back the name? You mean for us to let him use the ATS tag or him allow us to use the tag? The question is irrelevant anyway because we don't need Outcast to rule our decisions over our faction. What we do need is for Outcast's faction to show the same open objectivity and truth that we do. If every cloud is considered dark as Nights agents then nothing will be accomplished. Find the silver lining in them, and get everyone to know what we have done and what we stand for.

I never believed ATS had "gone" when Outcast left, I believed it had been stolen by him - I believed HE had the audacity to say "Ok i finish my gaming life....come along server, forum and tag [aka soul]. Like I've always said Nick - and like you've always said - both factions have reasonable claim to the clan. No one faction is a 'true' clan, i've always promoted this in new recruits, both ours and theirs. And discouraged people on our side saying we are 'true ATS' like BDL.

What we know NOW that ATS never stood up too doesn't mean we were never ATS. I admit that I was ATS before this the division because my mindset and my beleif, as did everyone elses, consider that ATS was them and they were ATS. ATS was never a dictatorship to us in our present (at any time), and in our present (at any time) we did what we thought was best for the virtues taught to us by ATS. When we realised that Outcast had actually turned it into a dictatorship we abandoned him! NOT ATS.

Nick wrote:

We are better than the ATS of the past. We are better than Outcast's current ATS. If we are better, why are we afraid of letting go of a name that only weakens us?

Good point, more nicely phrased than other people's "just let go!". But the name only weakens us to who exactly? Me? I don't feel weakened by it. It weakens Outcast and Outcast only. He tries to weaken our name to his new recruits, and until they find out that we also have a valid perspective they "will consider us as dirt until we become dirt" as I said.

Let go? Giving the whole argument of "Not caring about what others think" leads to self-presevation and false self-empowerment. Like Xaso bodly puts it this game is built on reputation, and our inter-clan relations have put us so intregrally in the social circle of JK2 it is impossible to get back out. We may initially have the moral feeling of superioty but in time you will return here, new players will be dominating this game by then and no-one wil recognise you for what you are. Your aims are lost and all someone will say it "So you were in ATS? Yea i heard a bunch of fakers changed their name or something......You were one of those cheaters?" - Everyone will estimate you as dirt until you consider yourself as dirt.

In BRUTAL honesty with myself I am afraid to change the name because we will die out I think, I know a day when i will come on - only bots on our server. But Outcast (HAVING THE ATS SOUL POSSESSED) will be full the brim with new recruits. He will say "Go to play with your bots faker". We have received so much popularity because of what we pledge to be AND ARE! Under the rightfull banner of ATS. Like i said 90 percent of new JK2 players go to ATS.
1. I will not let these players be brought up to irrationally hate and ot judge us for somethiing we didn't do.
2. I will be mortified these players never learn of what person they support and what history has been erased from their knowledge.
3. I refuse to be erased from a history of legends which considering my circumstances we deserve a place in.

Nick I agree with your last point but with the only consequnetional negative:
Peace? Whoever says that this will accomplish peace you are wrong. By freeing ourselves with a name linked with Outcast we will drop all respect for his team, all restraint and effort in our own self-presentation will be lost. We will go to their server, he will ban us, we will come back and because our reputation doesn't link to ATS we will destroy his server. I wouldnt do this but others I know would.
We are good players who are making a difference and slowly removing the wall of outcast's tyranny brick by brick. Also 90 percent of Ex-ATS are so full of hate and anger at Outcast they have no-where to go but to join others and rage a campaign of anger against the ATS people because of what Outcast did to them. Giving them a bad name. We would be letting all this happen again if we left ATS to him.
We have expected a change to happen now? In just short of a month? Outcast is a damn big wall and it takes damn hard work to wear him down. I am putting up the strength and time to fight him.

I REALLY think you should add my choice PLEASE!!!!

Nick wrote:

The spirit is what one cannot bypass, not the name.

I believe the soul/spirit IS the name. I personally cannot seperate them. My rhetorical interrogative was because I felttyranny and wrath could never overcome a symbolic and holy place. Which I incorporated into the name.

Nick wrote:

I am beginning to hate the name, largely for what it tricked me into believing it was. I am legitimately excited to leave it behind.

You irrevocably suggest here that the name is Outcast and Outcast, it. Outcast tricked me not ATS.

GEEK TIME!! - Palpatine taught love in plain demonstration and hate in subtle cunning, when people realised that he taught them hate they abolished it and him. But they didn't discard the democracy he represented at the time nor the love of equal politics (so it seemed xD). Now our time in the sage is that we are labelled the 'rebels', and are being ruthlessly oppressed. I feel we have to wait it out and capitalise, like I said - although quite grey I agree - Outcast is a huge wall. And we ARE chipping away. He wants two things - either us to dissapear OR for us to retalite in hostility to prove to ourselves our proposed vices.

I don't think the workings of in clan fun official rank tournaments are nearly as imperitive as re-shifting the entire identification of this faction. Mereel's actions far outweigh mine for the sincerity of the topic. Shall I say "Exile all with yellow colour in their names?", present valid argument, NOT enable vote cancellation (:/) and attempt to close the poll before there is any reasonable dissagreement? Didn't think so.

Nick wrote:

You have to let go of "value" when it comes to democracy; it is a sacrifice you must make. Millions of uninformed people vote in the United States for the president. That's how we elected Bush a second term. But you still have to accept the decision, because democracy in the long term is more important than a single decision.

And who decided the differences between two presedential candidates and a random tramp off the street? People voted once the political parties themselves decided upon the pros and cons of each member. This applies here only in 'theme' and not actual person.

Phoenix: Revolution begs for evolution yes. But evolution is extended development not an ultimate abandonment. We are extending the meaning and significance of our clan - ATS. Not leaving everything behind (history, legendary members, present friends, spirit, innocent recruits, potential aggresives) just because of their connection to Outcast.

Is Outcast the chief cause of what we are doing? Yes. Even if you argue I think our actions inevitably are a consequence of his own, and in doing so ask yourself this.

Is Outcast more important that us? No. Then why do we have to signify an abandonment from HIM to make a point that will never be echoed to the majority of new players in the future. Why do we have to make the removing of tag?

Does Outcast have more right to ATS than us? No. It is what we have been defending for the last 3 months and its funny that in a couple of days you now all say yes to this question. You say this because you are tired of conflict, you sub-conciously just want to get away from Outcast and you are starting to believe more and more that he OWNS something that morally cannot be possesed. Only lead.

The name is the soul and spirit, the name is what defines us and has defined us for 3 years. The name is what we have aspired to accomplish and the name is what we have respected in the past. I will not abandon what I have been striving towards for more or less a year and I will not concede that Outcast has more right to rule over all of us.

Seb - We didn't just see ATS....we were and for a time LEAD ATS. Defending its name. Do you agree with my perception shown through Jerusalum? I disagree with you I am ATS and always will be. So you're "we" excludes me. Whatever action is taken I will remain ATS. Because I refuse to let the leaders of it effect my judgement of what it really is.

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:

What we know NOW that ATS never stood up too doesn't mean we were never ATS. I admit that I was ATS before this the division because my mindset and my beleif, as did everyone elses, consider that ATS was them and they were ATS. ATS was never a dictatorship to us in our present (at any time), and in our present (at any time) we did what we thought was best for the virtues taught to us by ATS. When we realised that Outcast had actually turned it into a dictatorship we abandoned him! NOT ATS.

And:

Sebbat wrote:

I think that bdl doesnt have to be in that list because he only said, i dont want to change the tag Sad, and he didnt explained why.. he only made spam :/

But surely BDL is entitled to his opinion? If my debates draw level to Hek's arguments then goddamit BDL's 'arguments' are the same as yours or anyone elses no matter how much anyone else talks and no matter how convincing the other person is. :/

Nick wrote:

Also Kernow, you cannot claim to be about equality if you think that Hektor's vote or the other "nodders" votes are less valuable than yours. I still acknowledge that majority wins.

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:

SEB! What do you think of my proposal? - my many pointed one on page 3.

Kernow Pilgrm wrote:

A man with a thousand words and infinite complexities is rendered obsolete to Ten men with nothing but nods and their conquering support.
This is also why I am a man of democracy as well as majority. Democracy ensures majority but it also ensures that the argument is summarized in simplistic and convincing forum by those of higher debatist skill, argued ruthlessly and exhaustingly to acheive an unified understand. Which the rest of the clan can understand AND THEN vote on.

If you had read even just these you wld've understood why BDL's vote counts just like everyone else's. You didn't obviously take in this and you didn't answer my question

I am making a tiring and exhausting effort to reply to EVERY post with EVERY possibly argument to achieve a true realisation on things. Nick has persuaded me the most with the name change (as always its only Nick.) but I have a lot of worries and posts unanswered and not read simply because they're not on the most recent page. You all suck - if you read this say - haha i did read it dude, say this and this only please it'll be a good test of who reads all the arguments. STARTED THIS WRITING ON THIS TOPIC ABOUT 4/5 HOURS AGO! No wait my first comment was 9.36pm now its 3am!!!

I had dinner and managed to have a poker game with my mates while doing this, even do a bit of University work. But i think i know at the end of the day who takes the true practicality of argument and debate into heart.

Kernow, people voted and voiced their opinion. Please... just say what you feel, and say yes or no.

kernow is completely right.

@ blue
too late. mereels hastiness screwed the fairness and completion of this vote.

@ all
the topic "outcast" has to be closed for us all. yes i agree.
but do you really think ignoring him will help it?
Ignorance is his way of treating issues. Not ours. we shouldnt even start with it.
And if only kernow and me are ready to put efforts in a final solution of the problem outcast for one and for all, then just let us make a point, a finish, to that problem towards us.
or do you really believe he will stop discrediting us? banning us for nothing? calling us exiles? tell new players, and the ats oldies, that we are rats?

we have the same or even more right on the name as he does.

just let us do, what at the end of every conflict stands. asign of the end of the struggle. a contract.
we letting go every claim of using a tag and name he invented.
and for that he will have to stop telling lies to our old ats mates. stop hiding our existance towards the newbies, and stop spreading a bad fame, stop banning us for no reasons.

If we cannot stop outcast finally, than just let us make a milestone. Our declaration of independance. (just imagine no state, the usa, any south american state would have done such. only because the mother state wont admit a loss...)

nick is right, when he says reality is not only perception. that is then finally another reason to make something like a treaty.
It would secure, that you guys, heky, sebbo, mereel and all the others, would finally be able to lay back completely. Who really wants an end of all this shit should see the evidence of such a contract.

and kernow, and the mute ppl who think like you, such a contract would partly avoid that outcast builds another bubble. we could finally play again with out old friends like gich and argentino and other casual players. and their recruits will know us then as well... and they will know a secure harbour as soon as outcast shows his evil side again. There will be no need for another zof, and another re-founding of this clan. acknowledging our existance will help the future generation of his wannabe-ats as soon as outcast will exile them for no reason. Our responsibility for those is then done. we are there, and they know it.

and fearing a fight back is a valid point. That is why i speak of a contract now. If they feel attacked or offended they wont agree on nothing. It just looks like we have to work together one last time, finishing that contract. Such a thing would guarantee peace at least. A contract accepted by both clans would finally force both clans to keep it. We have nothing to lose, when we remain on our points to not spread bad fame and stop banning us. Outcast still will be losing then, by being who he is. He will screw his next generation on alone. We dont have to nothing, and he cant blame us for anything. For us, it will be a win/win situation. And he is on lose/lose.

The advantage of such a treaty is, that nothing is left to occasions in this game. The reputation, the rumours, the bans, the old members and the new. Nothing. When we give him the name like nothing, its left all to occasion... what he will say about us, what he will tell, what he will hide; to the newer, or to the older. And what will it cost us? Nothing. A name, we just would seem to give up like that, and we were forced to act, like we are claiming to act anyway. He can only demand things from us, we are providing anyway. Fairness. We wouldnt make any advertising on his forum and server. There would be no need then. We shouldnt lag his server. Which we refuse anyway. We shouldnt lame his members, what is against our values. We shouldnt recruit on his server, which we wont do anyway, and which we dont need. What can he demand from us?

What i see in a contract is a win/win situation for us. We would get secured peace, and the possibility the have our indirect influence on his clans and communities future, like he would have a indirect or even direct influence on us anyways. But if we dont make a contract at least, if we dont take demands, our next future is kind of unsecured, and our responsibility towards the new players he would get would be screwed.

"why should he make then such a contract?" you may ask.
Because he wants that name. Because he wants peace as well. And because he doesnt believe that he is the reason for all his members finally refuse him. He will just see the same reasons on his side, like we consider being on our side. But we know its wrong (though he thinks we are) and the time will show it.
And there is another reason why i think he would make it. Because we have the argument of old friendships. Why would he keep us from meeting our old mates, when a contract forces us to keep respectful and dont advertise and stuff.

So, i ask you guys now.

What do you think about making a namechange connected to such a contract, which would give us comfort and advantages and peace. What do you think wont work, what do you think is still needed.

(and we have to decide who will be the one negotiating with them about such a contract)

Blue I can't add it cause it won't let me for some reason. I don't know why...


Also, did I hear a foul wind speaking insults into my ear? Hmm, must be me going crazy.

I'll begin my response with a little cheer. You are all my friends, good, strong friends with good dreams and strengths to support them, friends to help improve those strengths. While you fight eachother you are also helping eachother. Life needs balance, fighting has to happen some time. Just chill and wait this one out, relax. Forgive eachother too, if you have time.

P.S. I fight a lot, it happens!

Cheers,
Abrum

Wtf. Who gave me bad karma?

Anyway time for an update:

Yes:

Sebbat Reason: Hates Outcast, and wants change
Hektor Reason: Hates Outcast, and wants change
NickdeClaw Reason: Wants change and thinks we need to start anew
Mereel Reason: Wants change and thinks we need to start anew
Phoenix Reason: I don't know? lol
Blackwolf Reason: Wants change?
Abrum Reason: Wants change
Vort Reason: Wants change
Grimmjow Reason: Wants change


Problem is there is 13 votes, but only 9 explained why. If you vote please say why.

No:
Kernow Reason: We are ATS (I am summing it up, don't hurt me ): )
BDL Reason: I don't know? lol

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:

I think you misunderstand Xaso thinking we are defeated if Outcast takes the conditions. Getting practical and just explanations of truth from the minority are what we would consider beneficial. Outcast admitting his faults is a dream. Outcast admitting what happend - "I was believed to have been a bad leader and as such on the deletion of forum and server as test they feel me unfit for leadership" is only a slight self-sacrifice of pride that would accomplish such a greater amount of respect towards him.
...
What we do need is for Outcast's faction to show the same open objectivity and truth that we do.
...
We have expected a change to happen now? In just short of a month? Outcast is a damn big wall and it takes damn hard work to wear him down. I am putting up the strength and time to fight him.

Xasomur wrote:

And if only kernow and me are ready to put efforts in a final solution of the problem outcast for one and for all, then just let us make a point, a finish, to that problem towards us.
or do you really believe he will stop discrediting us? banning us for nothing? calling us exiles? tell new players, and the ats oldies, that we are rats?

we have the same or even more right on the name as he does.

just let us do, what at the end of every conflict stands. asign of the end of the struggle. a contract.
we letting go every claim of using a tag and name he invented.
and for that he will have to stop telling lies to our old ats mates. stop hiding our existance towards the newbies, and stop spreading a bad fame, stop banning us for no reasons.

...

and kernow, and the mute ppl who think like you, such a contract would partly avoid that outcast builds another bubble. we could finally play again with out old friends like gich and argentino and other casual players. and their recruits will know us then as well... and they will know a secure harbour as soon as outcast shows his evil side again. There will be no need for another zof, and another re-founding of this clan. acknowledging our existance will help the future generation of his wannabe-ats as soon as outcast will exile them for no reason. Our responsibility for those is then done. we are there, and they know it.

and fearing a fight back is a valid point. That is why i speak of a contract now. If they feel attacked or offended they wont agree on nothing. It just looks like we have to work together one last time, finishing that contract. Such a thing would guarantee peace at least. A contract accepted by both clans would finally force both clans to keep it. We have nothing to lose, when we remain on our points to not spread bad fame and stop banning us. Outcast still will be losing then, by being who he is. He will screw his next generation on alone. We dont have to nothing, and he cant blame us for anything. For us, it will be a win/win situation. And he is on lose/lose.

The advantage of such a treaty is, that nothing is left to occasions in this game. The reputation, the rumours, the bans, the old members and the new. Nothing. When we give him the name like nothing, its left all to occasion... what he will say about us, what he will tell, what he will hide; to the newer, or to the older. And what will it cost us? Nothing. A name, we just would seem to give up like that, and we were forced to act, like we are claiming to act anyway. He can only demand things from us, we are providing anyway. Fairness. We wouldnt make any advertising on his forum and server. There would be no need then. We shouldnt lag his server. Which we refuse anyway. We shouldnt lame his members, what is against our values. We shouldnt recruit on his server, which we wont do anyway, and which we dont need. What can he demand from us?

What i see in a contract is a win/win situation for us. We would get secured peace, and the possibility the have our indirect influence on his clans and communities future, like he would have a indirect or even direct influence on us anyways. But if we dont make a contract at least, if we dont take demands, our next future is kind of unsecured, and our responsibility towards the new players he would get would be screwed.

"why should he make then such a contract?" you may ask.
Because he wants that name. Because he wants peace as well. And because he doesnt believe that he is the reason for all his members finally refuse him. He will just see the same reasons on his side, like we consider being on our side. But we know its wrong (though he thinks we are) and the time will show it.
And there is another reason why i think he would make it. Because we have the argument of old friendships. Why would he keep us from meeting our old mates, when a contract forces us to keep respectful and dont advertise and stuff.

So, i ask you guys now.

What do you think about making a namechange connected to such a contract, which would give us comfort and advantages and peace. What do you think wont work, what do you think is still needed.

(and we have to decide who will be the one negotiating with them about such a contract)

I don't think such a contract will ever happen. Outcast doesn't need anything from us, he can create anything he wants in his imaginary world. We are already illegitimate in his world, we practically don't exist. Making a deal with us would be making a deal with the very cheaters he accuses of making deals with other cheaters. It's in his best interest to continue doing things the way he always does: ignoring everyone who tries to solve problems with him, claiming authority, and carrying everyone else blindly into the future reality he has fabricated to suite his desires. If I thought that it were possible to secure a real "contract" with him, I would have nothing to lose in letting you guys pursue this objective. But I don't make myself vulnerable by asking for a treaty from someone I suspect will deny, marginalize, and belittle me. Asking for a treaty is playing right into his hands, and honestly - even if there were a chance that it would succeed - I would rather not make it. Kernow says:

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:

In BRUTAL honesty with myself I am afraid to change the name because we will die out I think, I know a day when i will come on - only bots on our server. But Outcast (HAVING THE ATS SOUL POSSESSED) will be full the brim with new recruits. He will say "Go to play with your bots faker". We have received so much popularity because of what we pledge to be AND ARE! Under the rightfull banner of ATS. Like i said 90 percent of new JK2 players go to ATS.

But I am not afraid. I am confident that we do not need the ATS name, and I think it would speak more highly of us if we succeeded under our own power. In the period of the reformation, the ATS name allowed us to secure most of the members, yes. I grabbed the forum domain as soon as I saw it was available for this very reason. But we have now exhausted the usefulness of this name; the vast majority of former ATS members have seen what has happened and have chosen a side. New players do not know the history, so keeping the ATS name is irrelevant. What will matter to them are the VALUES, just as we have said for so long that it is the values that make the clan. ATS is just a name; its symbolizing fair play and camaraderie is only meaningful to the individuals who have past experiences with ATS. If our new name was "Ham-burglar", new players would then associate Ham-burglar with values of fair play and camaraderie, and additionally in our case freedom and equality. Creating a new name means proving our values from a new starting point. Yes we will have lost the claim to fair play and will have to prove it again. But we will also lose the association of tyranny, uncaring subjugation, and blind loyalty. Combine this with the fact that keeping the name means contending with the old ATS which is alive and well in Outcast's faction, and I think it is by far in our best interest to break from the past and build a better reputation for a new name.

Kernow Pilgrim wrote:

Does Outcast have more right to ATS than us? No. It is what we have been defending for the last 3 months and its funny that in a couple of days you now all say yes to this question. You say this because you are tired of conflict, you sub-conciously just want to get away from Outcast and you are starting to believe more and more that he OWNS something that morally cannot be possesed. Only lead.

From your perspective this is valid. But consider it from our perspective. I thought that Outcast and the founders were out of the picture, and that we were continuing ATS. It was a little too convenient that Outcast just happened to come back when we were succeeding, but the more the story continues to unfold, I am recognizing that he was probably telling the truth. It fits his personality perfectly, and our forums have undergone sudden changes like that in the past. Regardless, he is clearly intent on continuing the ATS that has always existed, and with many of the older members following him, I've realized that there were two communities in one before all this happened. Those that adhered to Outcast and history as being ATS, and those that thought ATS was the values and only the values. Up until the point where Outcast 'left' ATS, I had been pushing him to consider changes that would allow for democratic decisions on policies. He was vehemently opposed, there was no room for democracy. If we had tried to overthrow him back then, NO ONE would have considered us legitimate. Outcast can run his clan the way he wants, they would say. We would have been confused because we didn't think ATS was just Outcast. But it was. We were all in an imaginary community that thought ATS was something that it was not. It was not equality and unequivocal fairness back then, and it still isn't today as they continue the dictatorial tradition. I have abandoned any sentimental value to the ATS name during this disillusionment. It is not because I am just "tired of conflict" and I am "sub-consciously [just wanting] to get away from Outcast," it is because from my perspective there is no need for conflict and because I consciously just want to get away from Outcast. Because ATS was, is, and will continue to BE Outcast. (In my opinion.) I understand if you guys still think that ATS isn't Outcast because I felt that way too. It is a legitimate argument. But for me personally, when I look at the facts, all I see is that I was foolish to give him so many chances when he is so undeniably corrupt. He fooled me into thinking I was a valuable part of his community, and I feel no need to stay attached to the clan name that is so intertwined with Outcast himself. It may seem like a sudden change to you ("It is what we have been defending for the last 3 months and its funny that in a couple of days you now all say yes to this question"), but it has been a few weeks coming. I'm not abandoning our principles or our community, on the contrary: I just feel it would be best for us to make this change.

I think we have shown our strength, and that most of us feel disillusioned by the false reality given to us by Outcast in the past. The usefulness of the ATS name has passed us, and now what is important are our values and our actions. Moving forward, my opinion is that the easiest solution is to focus internally, live our values, and welcome into our clan new people who share those values. I don't feel like this is abandoning my values and giving up the fight, I feel like it's formalizing the community that I have transiently been a part of whenever I play JK2. For me the internal focus we need includes changing our name and cutting associations with Outcast's faction. I don't think he will ever relent, and I think that he gets his power from others walking into the trap of treating his opinion and his words as though they have value. This includes asking him to respect us; he will feed off this acknowledgement of our caring about his being respectful, and he will deny us to further emphasize his power. But we have the advantage in our home territory, and I think if we stop going to their server and forums, we will better be able to legitimize ourselves in our own eyes and in the eyes of people who visit our community. Even if we are kind and respectful in our server, if people see us acting like rebels in his server, we will in turn be viewed as rebels, and Outcast will take this a step further to "villains." We have everything we need here: forums, a server, dedicated people, worthy values, and a commitment to equality that will allow us to quickly prove that our community is the best choice for those seeking a respectful, fun environment. Having all these things on our side, we do not need to fear changing our name. We have what it takes to define our own future on our terms, and with nothing else negative to bring us down, I think the lingering negativity that is part of the ATS name ought to be removed as well, freeing us from burden and allowing us to reach our highest potential.