TO ALL ATS MEMBERS

First topic message reminder :

[b] TO ALL MY ATS FRIENDS:

THIS DAYS AGO SOME BAD THINGS HAPPENED, OUTCAST LEFT THE CLAN I DONT KNOW EXACTLY WHY, AND THE FORUM WAS DELETE AND ETC...

I WILL MAKE THIS EASILY...
IM WORKING IN THE SERVER FOR A REBUILDING STUFF. SO I DID A MEETING WITH SOME MEMBERS AND WE DECIDE THIS:

YOU GUYS HAVE AND ELECTIONS FOR ADMIN PASS RIGHT?
WELL U WILL HAVE TO, BUT THIS WILL BE DEMOCRATIC AND VERY MATURE DECITIONS.

ATS CLAN IS A BIG PART OF ME AND LIKE A FOUNDER I WAS VERY WORRIED LIKE YOU GUYS, SO I TALKED WITH THE PEOPLE WHO BUILD ALL AND WE DECIDE TO CONTINUE THE ATS CLAN WORK.

YOU HAVE TO KNOW SOMETHING, IM NOT OUTCAST, HES A GREAT GUY WHO DID A LOT FOR ALL OF US, AND YOU DONT HAVE TO TALK BAD THINGS ABOUT HIM, HE IS AND HE WAS THE PRINCIPAL FOUNDER OF THIS CLAN (YOUR CLAN GUYS) AND I WONT ACCEPT TO TALK BAD THINGS ABOUT THE CLAN STRUCTURE BECAUSE MAYBE A LOT OF YOU DONT KNOW HOW HARD WAS THIS JOB.

OTHER POINT, I WILL BE THE SAME, I WILL MAKE DECITIONS WITH THE OTHER ADMINS LIKE ALWAYS, I WILL TELL MY ADMINS THE PEOPLE WHO IS VERY DANGEROUS FOR OUR CLAN, AND I THINK THIS IS THE GOOD WAY TO PUT THE BOAT ON FLOAT AGAIN.

IF YOU WANNA CHANGE SOMETHING, YOU NEED TO ASK ME BECAUSE IM HERE WITH YOU GUYS. SO PLEASE DONT FORGET THAT.

]=ATS=[~*MaximuS*~

na... he posted ONCE at all in this forum... he CANNOT even be the leader... he can get an extra admin... we can even put him as council nominee... buthe wont destroy the democratic system! he may be founder, but ats is ruled from now by qualitity and hard work... not by nostalgia and power hunger! maxi can choose to be qualitity and hard work and he can EARN his voice again... or he can choose the other... and he will fail...
dont get me wrong... i would agree giving max some of the power he had before, i like maxi... but HE should be therer for ats and not vice versa... it WONT WORK vice versa!

so now stop makin any suggestions: looks like we can forget the old server and we get a new one... the forum is not uner his control... he couldnt take over EVEN if he tries... if maxi is real ATS i am sure hw chooses the right way of respect and companionship! if not... he will fail...

blame me for that, but i stand to this: who will cooperate gets my cooperation and respect... who not... will fail for me.

Mmm, about what i've told. Happy to know that i am not the only "stupid guy who doesn't understand, Eh max ?".

I agree with you Xasomur.

Xasomur wrote:

na... he posted ONCE at all in this forum... he CANNOT even be the leader... he can get an extra admin... we can even put him as council nominee... buthe wont destroy the democratic system! he may be founder, but ats is ruled from now by qualitity and hard work... not by nostalgia and power hunger! maxi can choose to be qualitity and hard work and he can EARN his voice again... or he can choose the other... and he will fail...
dont get me wrong... i would agree giving max some of the power he had before, i like maxi... but HE should be therer for ats and not vice versa... it WONT WORK vice versa!

so now stop makin any suggestions: looks like we can forget the old server and we get a new one... the forum is not uner his control... he couldnt take over EVEN if he tries... if maxi is real ATS i am sure hw chooses the right way of respect and companionship! if not... he will fail...

blame me for that, but i stand to this: who will cooperate gets my cooperation and respect... who not... will fail for me.

LOOK XASOMUR i ll make it clear here once again MAXIMUS HAS BEEN HERE SINCE LONG LONG TIME THAN YOU.LATELY HE HAD OWN PROBLEMS AND TRUSTED THE CLAN TO OUTCAST.AND NOW YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENDS SO YOU ARE NOT THE ONE TO SAY IF HE IS OR NOT TO BECOME LEADER THIS CLAN IS PART OF MAXIMUS AND MORE PART THAN YOU AND ME.

... i recommend u to read the post ui made again and search through all the answers... i am not the only one thinking like this and i want to emphasize again: clan can only lead by ppl who are here more often! and if maxi has some personal issues than is it sad... but that makes him nor suitable as only leader...
and just imagine the queen mum would rule alone gb... because she is of royal blood... thats a joke...
ols... i BEG u to not be pigheaded

I didn't come back to be mastered by someone who wants to be leader. Max do what you want, you won't lead me. I am ats member of a clan, not your member, just know it. And don't tell me to leave if i am not happy, i am in this clan, but not for you, so i stay.

@ sylba : Once more, he hasn't been here when the clan needed it. And what the fuck do we care that he has been here since a long time ? What does it change ? I stay a long time so i am better than another ? Look at outcast : he was main founder, and first leader, and he fucked us up. I know that max isn't outcast, but anyway, it's to tell that being old in the clan doesn't make of him better than others members. He can't tell just like this i am your leader. Then clan changed because his members want it. And the clan = members, so that's all.

Xasomur wrote:

... i recommend u to read the post ui made again and search through all the answers... i am not the only one thinking like this and i want to emphasize again: clan can only lead by ppl who are here more often! and if maxi has some personal issues than is it sad... but that makes him nor suitable as only leader...
and just imagine the queen mum would rule alone gb... because she is of royal blood... thats a joke...
ols... i BEG u to not be pigheaded

Dont care how many have these thoughts i know others with mine and ALL ARE OLD ATS wierd? the thinks is that your ideas got some wrong parts

Ajunta Pall wrote:

I didn't come back to be mastered by someone who wants to be leader. Max do what you want, you won't lead me. I am ats member of a clan, not your member, just know it. And don't tell me to leave if i am not happy, i am in this clan, but not for you, so i stay.

@ sylba : Once more, he hasn't been here when the clan needed it. And what the fuck do we care that he has been here since a long time ? What does it change ? I stay a long time so i am better than another ? Look at outcast : he was main founder, and first leader, and he fucked us up. I know that max isn't outcast, but anyway, it's to tell that being old in the clan doesn't make of him better than others members. He can't tell just like this i am your leader. Then clan changed because his members want it. And the clan = members, so that's all.

IN ATS IT CARES IF HE HAS SEEN MORE THINGS THAN YOU ,IN OTHER CLAN NO

lol ajunta you didn't know outcast before... he was not a bad leader.

lol, good for him, what about the clan ? doesn't he have his word about that ? once more, a clan is members. Because he tells he is leader, but he can't claim it just like this.
I make you remember that it's all of the members who met together to speak about the clan.
It's the members who made the new forum, and took everyone back, to keep clan full. And you just said let it die, and now you want old co leader to come back ? To be absent once more ? if he has his problems outside of jk2, and can't take care of us, why is he leader ? I can forgive him, but don't tell : " i can't take care of you i am busy " and then " i am your leader you must obey to me " -.-'

Ajunta, before all this shit happened, Outcast was a good leader who knew what he was doing with this clan. I don't know what happened to him, but he changed.

Sylba, I understand that history is important, since that seems like it is all that you're focusing on, but you need to look forward to see what isbest for the clan, not what was the best for the clan. I understand that if you don't learn from history, then you are doomed to repeat it. But dwelling on the history of the clan that won't help the new reformed ATS, has no purpose whatsoever, so start looking forward to what you can do now, not what you could have done.

A big thank you to Xasomur, Ajunta, Blue, and Mereel, it takes a lot of pressure off me to see you guys standing up for the new system and demanding your rights. You have all made good arguments, don't be afraid to continue to voice your opinion, because as you can see the majority of the clan agrees with you. As long as we are firm in what we believe, majority community decisions will take precedence, regardless of who controls what resources in ATS, because the clan IS the community.

A king who rules none is king of whom?

I see no benefits to be gained by not allowing the clan to make decisions for itself. Afterall, what our clan is formed around is a GAME. Sure mistakes will be made with this new system, but they are mistakes in a GAME, and they will be OUR mistakes, and we can correct them. If one person leads, mistakes will STILL be made, but it will be THE LEADER'S mistakes, and he or she may not even believe they are mistakes, and we will have another situation where the community is frustrated with its leader. This is not good for the community and it is not good for the leader, and I don't understand why anyone would want to put themselves as leader and risk this happening.

With the new system, whatever you put in from now on is what you are; if you put in the devotion to be HC, you will be voted HC. It ensures that whoever will best help guide the clan is the person given responsibility. Being a leader in this system is INFINITELY MORE MEANINGFUL than declaring that you are leader, because if you become a leader, it is because THE COMMUNITY HAS PUT ITS TRUST IN YOU TO BE THAT LEADER. This is not a new concept, most of our countries use democracies. Would we rather have our countries be an oligarchy, or a dictatorship? Obviously not. Then why do you old members not trust in this new system?

This whole thing is very vulnerable to people being corrupt and taking power for the sake of having power, instead of to give back to the community. For this reason, we must be firm in what we believe and not let people operate outside the boundaries of the system we put in place for ourselves, or we are already admitting that people can break the rules. It is vital for our reputation in JK2 and also WITHIN ATS that we respect the legitimacy of the popular vote. Like I said, mistakes will be made, but they will be OUR mistakes, and ATS will be a much more cohesive group of friends than without these community efforts.

SyLba wrote:

Xasomur wrote:

... i recommend u to read the post ui made again and search through all the answers... i am not the only one thinking like this and i want to emphasize again: clan can only lead by ppl who are here more often! and if maxi has some personal issues than is it sad... but that makes him nor suitable as only leader...
and just imagine the queen mum would rule alone gb... because she is of royal blood... thats a joke...
ols... i BEG u to not be pigheaded

Dont care how many have these thoughts i know others with mine and ALL ARE OLD ATS wierd? the thinks is that your ideas got some wrong parts

u dont care how many have that thoughts? u dont care? this really shocks me. u are interested in history: let me tell u something. Even before the beginning of our calendar system the population was divided into over all 3 kinds: the rich and powerful, living in big cities, caring about their own problems; the normal ppl, living in cities too, many many more than those rich people, they had hard work to do to keep their living standarts, or even survive; the poor people and the farmers, no money at all, living by the things growing on their land. the words luxus, as used by the romans, wasnt even known in rural regions, they did only know surviving and taxes, and those are opposites.
The rich people decided all over the poorer ones... the rich people never saw a farmers house from the inside, but though they were deciding for them, what taxes they had to pay... those rich ppl never had to keep a farm running, but they were deciding how many food 1 farm has to produce, ignoring hard winters or too hot summers.
and now guess what: those rich ppl didnt even make 10% of the population.
U really want to tell me thats fair? do that... its ok... those rich ppl did it anyway. and they formed something called nobility. we have the power, because we are noble. We are noble, because our fathers were. And their fathers were too.
Of course only the opinion of the nobility was the one to hear and notice. of course. so why should you tell somethign different. and it worked superb... 2000 years and longer... wow...
but this is where the story starts: it came a time, when the ppl, working hard on the farms, working until they die. supressed by a nobility that says: its because our history, we always were leaders of the state. (just remember... not even 10%) so and one of the first places on earth to understand was north america. France following... in the 19. century other states followed.
The ppl there understood that this, what they've belonged to, their kind-of-state,
existed to please the nobility. they understood that they were born equal. That having power because only to have the power is just wrong, it destroyes everything, it spoiling the nobility, so that the nobility wanst noble since ages. and it was vausing wars to extend powers. but it was not creating a athmosphere anymore where the ppl could live. (and tell me now again, i maybe misunderstood something: what was the reason again, that this whole development was shit? why the hell does millions of people dont deserve that right? why is 10% more important, though his only effort in the last times grew into unfairness and supression? tell me again... i seem to forgot that)
Maybe this was too general for u. i make a more close geographic circle, extra for u: the ancient greeks: famous for founding our ethic system and literature and nearly everything whats now our culture, they conquered by the romans... but the romans culture wasnt strong enough to rule the greeks, so the greeks culture overtook the roman one. so the greek culture lived longer... starting 750 BC until 29. may of 1453. the ottomans conquered greece. but: the cultures here couldnt be mixed: orthodoxian christs one the one side and muslims on the other one... the ottoman empire was huge and powerful. it sppressed greek culture and i think u lnow how this things usually run. interesting here is, that in greece there were many greeks very intelligent, studying all their ancient culture and progress in every science and philosophy over all... so these greek ppl where quite clever minds... in opposite to ottomans... they even were too lazy to administrate the greece cities and lands... they couldnt even speak greek, the only thing they did, was to strike down the riots. then the ottoman went again... only those grabbing the taxes stayed to fufill their purpose. someday... and now its the notional day of greece... the greek population, with many support from the outside, rose agains the great ottoman empire to restaurate greece, and THEY decided, as i said they were intellectual ppl, what to do with they country on their own.
isnt that nice? fits to our point not: best philophy's clan over here having cultural high... somewhen the leaders turned from greek ones to turks... which was first not to recognize... as our everyday lives goes on... but in time the things get worse and worse... the glorious greece of once were gone... and so the POPULATION ROSE TO BRING BACK THE GLORIOUS TIMES... because the nobility loses their view, and they definatly everytime do, for what they are themselves and what their state should be.
and i tell you how the story goes on:
the usa, never letting monarchy come back to rule theyre state is now most pwerful country of the world... it is. and take for example germany... here the monarchy was restaurated again ... and again... and again... and i tell u what it caused: 2 world wars...
strange what?
let me kind of summarize this last thing again... because maybe the other things are even too old for a history-lover: there, where the ppl... (u know, those 90% of which u said their opinion doesnt count) so where the ppl decided what to do, they grew stronger than before, and the other countries, they caused civil wars... like spain... or a holocaust like germany...

idk... i dont trust the opionion of the population... i dont like what it does... i rather like monarchy... dont u think?
oh man... all thes parallels... u were so right to look again to the history...

and now just lets risk a view over to the nobility: and there are two types: 1. one was supporting the population, as they saw that was once should be noble was not only a piece of unfair shit. this was about 50%, which u can see most in france and greece. this helped very much, because those nobility knew a lo about the politics... and they were welcomed as they wanted to help... and guess what: they kept teyre power and they're money only with supportment of the population now... mhh... this must really suck for the nobility, dont u think.
the other type was convinced of a noble nobility... so they werent supporting the population... two things did happen to them: those fighting openly with the population lost nearly everything... sometimes their head... the other did the complete opposite... they just kept theit money an dleft official live... and guess what... they are still rich and arrogant today... (yes this must suck too... right?)
so 75 of the nobility is still rich and over half of those are integrated into the new systems and they still lead the population... only 25 of all lost their things and power... but this isnt the end of story: the new system allowed them to regain money and power through some hard work and qualities... this is something wthat never existed before...
anyway: nobility didnt really lose... they could even win by cooperating...

ok... now a little bit mpre direct as u said there are some of the old ats thinking there are wrongs in my thoughts:
this is hilarious isnt it? i tell u what: There are some of the old ats thinkin this ew thoughts are ok...
anything else? ahh yes:
where are those u mean? i only see u and maxi and fisto... fisto is crap... even the old nobility... o noes... ats... were banning him. and then there are two... 2... aha...get those ppl all back to jk2, let them try this system and then let them judge... wouldnt that be the fair-ats-style? or will u put some words in their mouth?
and a last thing to this: have u ANY arguments that show me that there are wrongs in the new thoughts? i mean 1. technically: whats wrong with the system... its the best democracy u can have... u wont find anything of comparable qualities in the whole world i bet. and 2. historically: idk why the heck u are so mislead by ur thought of history. i study history at the university i told u already... i am convinced by its meanigs and examples they give us. what do U mean... i dont get it... u seem just totally wrong to me... what we are creating now is most ats u can make of these community. and as my little historical trip showed u: what we are doing is... u can say: inspired by the history, it IS just like the history goes. and u can NOT tell me now this one word HISTORY again and tell m eit would be the ultimate word for argument for getting back to monarchy. it is NOT... HISTORY is the strongest and most POWERFULL argument to get RID OF the monarchy...

what u mean.. and i tell u again and i couldnt be any more convinced, what u mean and talk about is NOSTALGIA... and i wont explain it to u again we alredy HAD an argue about it... and u still can read it again... and maybe it would help u to take any of my recommends... either one of them may help:
1. dont be pig headed
2. read the old argues again... u've been argued out...
3. make up ur mind, what do u want: just cooperate and HELP ATS... or go and invent ur own clan called ATS-nostalgia... u can have ur ultimate monarchy party over there and rebuilt the history again... and u will fail again and again AT THIS POINT IN HISTORY... it is inevitable. and it is good. and this leads me to 1.

so take only one of those to your heart... or mind... and u will get it...
we are NOT Trying to hurt someone... NO we arent... we dont want to condemn outcast here... no... i am proud on what he did... and i dont want to condemn maximus... but: ATS cannot be lead by anyone, like it was before... because WE DID LEARN FROM HISTORY...

maybe you should do too...

and when u want to get angry, then because of this post, because here is my hasty tongue and polemic attitude... until this i was innocent like a baby... but this one is the truth... and its awful isnt it?

ps: i started before nick wrote...

Jesus Christ Mr.Longpost is right! Lol, this is a very well thought out arguement Xaso, keep up the good work!

lol... u did read it all??? na.. only the last parts aye? xD

No I actually read all of it for one of mah best buddies! ^^ From all the crap about the nobility and middle class and 10% and blaaahhh

nice one + karma for u for reading the whole ... thing xD

Xasomur wrote:

HISTORY is the strongest and most POWERFULL argument to get RID OF the monarchy...

ATS cannot be lead by anyone, like it was before... because WE DID LEARN FROM HISTORY...

Xaso

Xaso wrote the "Testament"

outcast was best leader for me thats all waht i have to say
i will miss outcast
marry christmas out.

@ Nick

Np for the good pm. You needed someone to lift your spirits

@ Xasomur

Again Mr. Longpost, I totally agree with you. Great post dude.

@ Ajunta

I agree with the others. Outcast WAS a great guy. But he went through a change, and now he has forced his exile. But he will always be remembered for the great things he has done. If he didn't make ATS, we wouldn't be here together as great friends.

Remember guys. We are all in this together. The council is to be created for a combined choice on what this clan will be and do. And the admins are powerful, nor the leaders. The admins jobs are to protect and work on the server, so there is always a place for all to hang out and play with friends. It is a peaceful place for all. And the forum is for news updates, information, and for us to voice a few ideas and opinions. We are together to the end guys.

Xaso, good work to write it ... i totaly agree

PS: someone of you didnt see Xaso's posts in old forum ^^

Just so everybody knows where i stand, we have all decided that ATS was to become a democracy with no supreme leader but a conglomeration of leaders and if anybody disagrees with this then listen here:

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY IN HELL THAT IF I GIVE SOME OF MY MONEY TO HELP RUN THE SERVER THAT IM GOING TO BE DICTATED TO! IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO BE A SUPREME LEADER THEN THEY CAN PAY ALL OF THE DAMN MONEY FOR THE SERVER. IF NOT THEN SO LONG AS I PAY MY MONEY WILL ARGUE AGAINST ANYBODY WHO THINKS THEY ARE GOING TO BE LEADER.

sorry for the abrubtness but this is how strongly i feel about the situation.