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 The "Name"

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Name Change?
Yes(why)
94%
 94% [ 15 ]
No(why)
6%
 6% [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 16
 

AuthorMessage
mereel
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PostSubject: The "Name"   Wed 10 Feb 2010, 12:05 pm

Guys, I know this was coming soon, so I think I should go ahead and talk about it before we go any farther into other topics.

I been thinking, this whole mess is because of a "name". Alot of grudges, lags, lames, insulting, and immaturity over a "name". I understand completely why we are defending our title, but I will explain my side of things, since this has been on my mind for a long while.

I suggest we get a new name. That means new tags, new ranks (if any ranks, but that won't be discussed unless we agree on a new name), and some changes.

Now, the reasons: For one, as I just mentioned, Outcast is hating us, and acting immature because we have the clan tag ]=ATS=[. Now I know we shouldn't give in and let him keep the tag, cause then we are admitting ATS is his clan. But look of what trouble this is getting us. First lames, then the lag wars, then the insults, and now we are trying to patch things up. But they continue to act immature, and being greedy. So to end this all, and we can leave him to his server, and we don't have to be bothered by him ever again, is to change our name. This would end all.

Another reason is what we are. Yes we are ATS. But maybe we are more. We continue saying a clan is the members, so maybe we are more than ATS. Maybe we are better. Maybe we CAN be more. We already have a new start and a new beginning from splitting from Outcast, but maybe we should change our name to represent our change. To show we are more than what we seem. If you can't get what I am saying, I am saying we outgrew ATS. xD

For example, we are a butterfly. When in ATS we were the caterpillar. Now we were the cocoon when we split from Outcast, and started growing into something more brilliant as we grew closer and closer together, and our clan grew. Maybe with a name change, we will show how much as a clan we GREW.

Another reason is ..... well I am a bit tired of people associating us with Outcast, cause we have the name ATS. But that is a personal reason, so you can ignore this.

Well I like to hear people's opinions. Post your opinion and your vote. I am putting the poll to last a week, so vote by then please. Smile
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Wed 10 Feb 2010, 1:45 pm

1. can we delete the poll at least for some time. I would like to collect arguments first, and after that take a decision. the poll at the head lets ppl make their vote first and then explain. on such a big issue i guess it is better to first read what the points are, why and why not.

ok... now to the main issue.

Yes u pointed out most of the problems related to the clan tag.

We consider ATS still as the values we believed that they were behind that name.
But apparently ATS means "Outcasts Will and those who adore him"
Well, we cant define the truth. the truth is defined by everyones opinion together. THEY think about it that way, WE think another. What do the rest of jk2 think?
I cant tell you what they think. I only know that some ppl come on our server and insult before having the info. I see that there are many ppl relating ats still with outcasts policy of ignorance and non-understanding and nonsense-ban
And i fear that many other players doesnt even care for what ATS stands.

Maybe in fact WE are the only ones caring about it, WE are the only one with our opinion about it.
Seen from an objective angle, we should change our name.

The thing is, there is no objective angle inside this clan. Thats why i wont be happy with either decision we take in the end.

There are some points i emphazised before, and that i need to summarize again:
The most ppl, if u take out the pet called kyle katarn for example, join this clan, because they believe in an idea it stands for. and then there was outcast who ruined that idea.
So for nearly all applicants (who dont have an objective angle, which makes this a hard decision) and those who grew out of them... (which are over thirty ppl ny now) they are convinced that they have the RIGHT to use that name, more than outcast deserves it. Simply because we ARE what ats SHOULD stand for.
(ye, but the other perspective sees the right of an "owner" and "founder" which is an easy and cheap argument... i mean... if i would be the owner of a steak house, and i have employees and guests... they all come because they are steak freaks. and i as owner delete every steak from the menu... then it IS no steak house, even if its name is still steak house. and this is the situation we are in: i want to keep the name "steak house" for my restaurant, which sells no steaks, and you, who sell steaks, arent allowed to keep the name "steak house".
you are actually in right, but i have kind of the law on my side)

What i want to say is: actually we have valid reasons and arguments for keeping the name. giving up the name, would symbolize giving up and killin the valid reasons and arguments.

And the other great issue we talk about is, that ATS surely gone through a change. It wasnt 3 months ago, what it have been 4 years ago.
and it is kind of what happened to the frecnh revolution. It started off as a revolution in the name of nearly every good ideal our world knows. And it ended finally in a disaster leading to napoleon's wars and all the issues grown out of it.
Outcast is kind of Napoleon. napoleon is considered by many as a genius, even if outcast isnt considered as one, as he hasnt got the ability to understand any logic, you ahve to admit that his efforts in keeping his power and washing somebody elses mind IS genius.
So napoleon rides on the wave of the good values bringing war and death all over europe.
That all, from the beginning to the rise of napoleon, that is the french revolution, the FR clan, if u so want.
And we consider ourselves as the FR it was when they were invading the bastille. that is what we want to stand for. but they are the FR what it was in the end, after the FR ate its children under robbespierre, who even fits better on outcast, with the guillotine, and after napoleon set himself at the top of the french state. Those are two different FR.
When we now in retrospective talk about the french revolution, we talk about the ideals and so on. but we arent in retrospective now. that is happening now.

but it will make the things even more complicated: They have all rights, just like we do, to say that they are ATS, because they are the ATS how it has become after 4 years.
So what will "the next generation" think about this? if there were no names at all, it would see a clan which gets rid of a tyran, who somewhen leaves, and the clan survives.
but the names changes nearly everything.
face it: there are two clans now.
They have the tyran
We have the values.

And if we change the name now, the next generation sees this:

a rebellion of another clan founded a new clan. (doesnt matter if outcasts ats then dies or survives...)
and if that happens, outcasts propaganda has won, and see it how u want, we were a repellion, which is actually, if u see behind the curtain of the name, NOT TRUE.


There are some more pragmatic things i want to point out:
If we change the name, we have to change the tag and the ranks, the whole structure.
do we want that? Arent we proud on the flames, and the look of the tag, on how we were raised and grew with it?


and another last point:
if we change the name, no older member will ever even see us, and recognize who we are and where we came from. All those casual gamers will just forget this, or doesnt even get to know this.
(because of outcasts propaganda...
if we'd agree on a namechange, than he need to agree to let his old friends know about us in a neutral way, let them know about the forum, and about the server, that is only fair... and if he still provides the torch of the fair play, that would be at least ONE of the conditions he would have to fulfill!)

so far... my 2 cents

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mereel
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Wed 10 Feb 2010, 1:55 pm

Well let me point this out.

This game was based on Star Wars. What were the rebels? Think about it.

That is my counter-argument.

If you don't believe me, you need to watch the movies again.
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Wed 10 Feb 2010, 2:14 pm

lol because the movies were made from a pro-rebel point of view...
make one out of the pro-imperial point of view and the tables turn...
and as u can see: in this game here the ppl give a damn about the rebel point of view, doesnt matter how the movie was like.

make a movie about the vietnam war, from the vietnam's point of view. as they are the rebels, and the americans are the empire.

it depends, as u see, on the movies you watch, and from which point of view u do

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Lelouch



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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Wed 10 Feb 2010, 3:24 pm

Hmm interesting. I think we should change the name because 1.outcast yeah u know the story. 2. Since were starting out fresh how about a new name ? Very Happy 3. Ats tag scaresa me! look closely there sad faces ]=ATS=[ LOL HOW ABT WE TURN THAT FROWN AROUND! [=TOTALSTARTWARSALIENCE[= [=TSA=]

loL

><~Wolf~><
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mereel
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Wed 10 Feb 2010, 4:21 pm

1) I like your attitude about this Black. Very Happy
2) Xasomur are you seriously wanting the empire to win? I should slap you. If you think I am wrong, watch Episode 3 or Episode 5. Those showed the dark side of the Empire. And if you still don't believe that, I will be forced to pull out my entire Star Wars knowledge against you. And you don't want that.

But why are you worried about what his recruits think of us? If we change our name, then we are no longer connected to ATS. We can't be compared to them. Rebels? What rebels? Why are you calling us rebels? We took charge, and Outcast came back to "rebel" against the change we tried to do.

And we should worry of the opinions of fresh players on OUR server, not his. That is why we got a server in the first place. For us. To start fresh. And if we find that he is spreading lies and curses against us, for example if we change our name, we can just tell our members to stay away from him, and then we will truly have a problem with Outcast.


And why does everyone fears a name change? It is just a name. The name should define the clan, and personally, I think we have outgrown it. We become grander, like my butterfly example.
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Hektor



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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Wed 10 Feb 2010, 10:28 pm

Sure.
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Kernow Pilgrim
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Wed 10 Feb 2010, 11:16 pm

Great debating skills there Hek. -_-

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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Thu 11 Feb 2010, 3:37 am

lol mereel, i would like to make a star wars knowledge contest ^^
there is nearly no extended universe book which i havent read Razz

but i think u didnt got what i mean:

of course the rebels won -.-
and i found it good.

but there is something u forget: that star wars story was about the whole universe, they were all involved.
But ATS isnt the whole jk2-universe. we are only a short part of it.

in star wars its easy to just neglect all the other opinions about the rebellion, because they have the final victory. they control the galaxy. they rule just the opinion about what they've done.

but we cant. we dont rule all jk2, we dont even rule outcasts clan.
so we cant say how all the other ppl in this game, and who come to our server, will think about that what happened here.
its like claiming to be the an evenhanded guy. vut if the world around him existimates him as the opposite, he can say what he want, no-one would believe him.

thats why i care about the others opinion.
and they will only see a bunch of ppl, LEAVING a clanand making a NEW one...
andas you can read in my longer post, that is not what we are.
butthey will call us like that, and then it doesnt matter what they say

and our own new recruits will come to use, like a clan, which is totally different from the ats clan, though we are its spirit.
and they will believe that outcasts clan has the real ats spirit, which is swrong.
if we change our name now, all the efforts, and all the argues, were for nothing, and we will just be another insurrection.

the problem maybe is, that i WANT to be connected to ats, because it is what i joined, it is what i believe in.
THEY arent connected to ats, only by the name, becazse they "own" the name. but they lost the spirit.

the truth will get lost if we change the name.

but arguing aout this over and over again will NOT lead to a solution , as u can read out of my post, which u didnt have read careful enough.

our way to go is to take demands from outcasts clan. We are the one with the more members, with the better server, more recruits, we have the values, we dont have to defend ourselves with bans and exiles, we arent hated by the whole jk2 community. we HAVE to take demands. It is the sign of our victory.

he has to fulfill our demands, then we change our name. it is the only way to finnsih this whole conflict in the apropiate way.

We here, as the winners, have to think about the demands we take on them.
1. he has to stop to call us any names (stealers/fakers whatever), other then the new one we will think of
2. he has to stop to ignore our existance
3. he has to inform all his new applicants about the recent history and the splitting
4. he has to inform his new applicants about the existance of our site and server
5. he has to infrom the old and casual members about our new site and server

this is the way we have to go anyway

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mereel
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Thu 11 Feb 2010, 6:19 am

I think I am going to listen to Blue. I am going to propose a vote: If the members want a name change, it is up to us to decide what we should do from their. After think about what Blue said, I do agree, all members should be involved, not just the Council. I have moved this topic to a Member's Public Chat.

So everyone, post your opinion, and if you want, vote. I decided to delete the polls for now. I will add polls later.
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Phoenix
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Thu 11 Feb 2010, 7:03 am

http://soljk2.forumotion.com/general-conversation-f4/same-old-story-from-outcast-t400.htm

Please note my second post further down the page. I have already suggested name change in the past and my ideas were dismissed.

@wolf, we would have to modify the tag, my suggestion is going from ]=XXX=[ to {-XXX-}


Last edited by Phoenix on Thu 11 Feb 2010, 9:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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BlueNinja
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Thu 11 Feb 2010, 8:40 am

Lol that would be awesome dude
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sebbat
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Thu 11 Feb 2010, 9:02 am

Ok.. i think that maybe we can change the tag to ]>ATS<[~ Razz
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Grimmjow



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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Thu 11 Feb 2010, 9:46 am

Or we could change the name completly so there will be no more issuses with outcast etc.

Like..

LoJ = Last order of jedis.
or
LaS = Last survivors of the alliance Smile

i dunno just some suggestions xD

Or just another name to show that we have evovled from outcast times into something better and more honourable so i think we should probaly change our tags and the name or at least the tags Smile
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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Thu 11 Feb 2010, 10:10 am

Let's decide whether to change our name before we suggest names. And if we do decide to change, we should have a discussion about the qualities the name should convey before we suggest names themselves.

Personally, my vote is to change our name. It would be undermining our argument only in the eyes of our opponent. In reality, it would be an acknowledgement of an improved clan, perhaps even the manifestation of the true clan we thought we joined in the first place. As Mereel has said we have moved beyond the ATS name. Before all this, ATS was about fair play and camaraderie, but now that our community is in control of itself, our clan is also about equality and fair administration.

When we joined, we thought ATS was about fairness in all aspects, but it was not. We all joined what was at the time an imaginary clan; we did not join ATS, because the ideas are what make the clan, and those ideas and values were not all present in ATS. But now we have created that clan; it is no longer imaginary. Perhaps now we should name it.
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Grimmjow



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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Thu 11 Feb 2010, 10:40 am

@Nick i agree with u, i also just came with some fast suggestions xD

Anyway ya i dunno if i can vote in this but YES i think we should change the name of the clan but i like the way we show our ranks with flames i don't think that should be changed.
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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Thu 11 Feb 2010, 10:41 am

Grimmjow wrote:
i like the way we show our ranks with flames i don't think that should be changed.
Definitely not. Smile
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Phoenix
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Thu 11 Feb 2010, 11:01 am

We are not changing the flame system and as far as im conserned it has no part to play in this dispute. We like our flames and i see no reason to change that, name change or no name change, the flame stays. (unless i am overwhelmingly disagreed with, which i doubt) Wink


Last edited by Phoenix on Thu 11 Feb 2010, 11:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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NickdeClaw
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Thu 11 Feb 2010, 11:08 am

Phoenix this isn't a place for name suggestions. -.-

Also I'm moving this to Member Conversation so people can vote. This isn't a Council topic anyway, this is a clan topic.
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mereel
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Thu 11 Feb 2010, 11:16 am

Whoops, sorry Nick. Thanks for correcting it. xD

Also Nick I totally agree, and been trying to say that. You just made it simpler. xD
But I also agree on the fact people need to vote before we decide a new name.


And Abrum, if you see this, it be nice if you not told Outcast of this yet. Smile
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Vort
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Thu 11 Feb 2010, 12:05 pm

Hehe, so my suggestion from couple months ago is finally brought back up again? You all know my reason to wanting the change of name.

-Avoid chaos from "other" ATS
-Avoid confusion for newbies
-Avoid any bad reputation that may still hold in history

People make up ATS, not the other way around. ATS is just a name, the players of this clan are the people who made up the great reputation. If we were able to change the reputation to good, then we can sure as hell be able to hold the reputation as a different name.

-Vort
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Thu 11 Feb 2010, 12:09 pm

yea, i am guilty of writing too long posts, and i am guilty of answering to everyone of you.
i will stop that.

but i am convinced, that THIS is a fundamental thing to do before we even think about a namechange:

Xasomur wrote:
our way to go is to take demands from outcasts clan. We are the one with the more members, with the better server, more recruits, we have the values, we dont have to defend ourselves with bans and exiles, we arent hated by the whole jk2 community. we HAVE to take demands. It is the sign of our victory.

he has to fulfill our demands, then we change our name. it is the only way to finnsih this whole conflict in the apropiate way.

We here, as the winners, have to think about the demands we take on them.
1. he has to stop to call us any names (stealers/fakers whatever), other then the new one we will think of
2. he has to stop to ignore our existance
3. he has to inform all his new applicants about the recent history and the splitting
4. he has to inform his new applicants about the existance of our site and server
5. he has to infrom the old and casual members about our new site and server

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BlueNinja
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Thu 11 Feb 2010, 12:54 pm

Yes

1.It will give the other ATS a peace of mind and we can all stop being harassed by others about being ATS.
2.Get rid of any bad reputations we have with others.
3.Avoid confusion with many people who may want to join us, but accidentally join the other ATS.
4.We can get a fresh start with a new tag.
5.I don't know about you, but I don't really like the ATS abbreviation, Alliance Total Star Wars? Really? lol
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Xasomur
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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Thu 11 Feb 2010, 1:09 pm

pls answer my post.

if we change our name like nothing, we are the losers.
outcast have to pay, because he lost, and we shouldnt change name until he satisfied us...

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PostSubject: Re: The "Name"   Thu 11 Feb 2010, 1:59 pm

Xasomur wrote:
our way to go is to take demands from outcasts clan. We are the one with the more members, with the better server, more recruits, we have the values, we dont have to defend ourselves with bans and exiles, we arent hated by the whole jk2 community. we HAVE to take demands. It is the sign of our victory.

he has to fulfill our demands, then we change our name. it is the only way to finnsih this whole conflict in the apropiate way.

We here, as the winners, have to think about the demands we take on them.
1. he has to stop to call us any names (stealers/fakers whatever), other then the new one we will think of
2. he has to stop to ignore our existance
3. he has to inform all his new applicants about the recent history and the splitting
4. he has to inform his new applicants about the existance of our site and server
5. he has to infrom the old and casual members about our new site and server
This should not be about us and them. It may bring peace, but that should be a side effect. We should not either change name or not change name based on them or what it means to them. Who cares what they do. The fact is that the leaders of the clan we used to be in are back and continuing their clan, but really we were never truly in that clan. A clan is an idea, not a physical thing. We are all part of the same clan, and we were before all of this as well. We were part of "ATS The Idea Of Fairness And Respect." They were part of "ATS The Idea Of Fairness And Respect For People Whom Outcast Selects." We weren't in the clan that Outcast, Maximus, Sylba, herny, and Kyle were in.

If we choose to change or not to change our name based on them, we nullify our victory and in turn lose. Caring about them at all is both giving them power and doing ourselves a disservice. The fact that we would only change our name if they respect us indicates that we care about their respect. I certainly do not care about their respect. To me, their opinions amount to a fart in outer space. If they are unreasonable, irrational, disrespectful, deceitful, and lying, why should anyone value their opinion? We certainly shouldn't now.

If we choose to change our name, we should not even talk to them about it. We should do it only for ourselves, to symbolically represent our improvements over and freedom from the system of which we were once part.
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