The "Name"

First topic message reminder :

Guys, I know this was coming soon, so I think I should go ahead and talk about it before we go any farther into other topics.

I been thinking, this whole mess is because of a "name". Alot of grudges, lags, lames, insulting, and immaturity over a "name". I understand completely why we are defending our title, but I will explain my side of things, since this has been on my mind for a long while.

I suggest we get a new name. That means new tags, new ranks (if any ranks, but that won't be discussed unless we agree on a new name), and some changes.

Now, the reasons: For one, as I just mentioned, Outcast is hating us, and acting immature because we have the clan tag ]=ATS=[. Now I know we shouldn't give in and let him keep the tag, cause then we are admitting ATS is his clan. But look of what trouble this is getting us. First lames, then the lag wars, then the insults, and now we are trying to patch things up. But they continue to act immature, and being greedy. So to end this all, and we can leave him to his server, and we don't have to be bothered by him ever again, is to change our name. This would end all.

Another reason is what we are. Yes we are ATS. But maybe we are more. We continue saying a clan is the members, so maybe we are more than ATS. Maybe we are better. Maybe we CAN be more. We already have a new start and a new beginning from splitting from Outcast, but maybe we should change our name to represent our change. To show we are more than what we seem. If you can't get what I am saying, I am saying we outgrew ATS. xD

For example, we are a butterfly. When in ATS we were the caterpillar. Now we were the cocoon when we split from Outcast, and started growing into something more brilliant as we grew closer and closer together, and our clan grew. Maybe with a name change, we will show how much as a clan we GREW.

Another reason is ..... well I am a bit tired of people associating us with Outcast, cause we have the name ATS. But that is a personal reason, so you can ignore this.

Well I like to hear people's opinions. Post your opinion and your vote. I am putting the poll to last a week, so vote by then please.

@ skam
choosign is good...

but you know that someone who enters outvats server will only get lies and ignorance about us...
they cannot choose... as they dont get accurate informations...
because i WANT the ppl to choose on theirselves we need to take a demand on outcast, that he stop lying about us, and stop spreading bad fame, let ppl know about our server and forum.

i do care more about the new ppl, and those who arent biased yet, more than i do about outcast himself.

^^
that is why we need to discuss BEFORE we let ppl vote...
its like voting for your political parties before u know what they stand for.
and it is kind of what outcast does: preventing ppl from getting to know both sides.
we cannot do the same here!

and i am actually FOR changing the name, but NEVER without taking such demands.
that you can see from my first posts: outcast is the owner of the name. We maintain the former values.
to beware the truth of what hapened, and how it happened, we cant give outcast the name back like nothing, because it would distort the truth.
as long as we dont take those demands

Yes Kernow you are right in a way...

But you fail to understand WHY I quoted you and Xasomur so much. I was pointing out you DO care. You care about how many recruits he has... What he says about us... etc.

So what he has that many now. Do I have to remind you for the 5th time? Remember US. How many of us he managed to get. Remember?? But what happen, when 1 thing went wrong and we found out who he really is? We LEFT. WE BECAME THIS!! (Spreads his arms) And again, he is 1 player.

Guys, this isn't politics. This isn't government. No player has 1 control. And he will not take over jk2. Why you fear that? He can't take over jk2. All he does is stay to his server, and ban all that disagreed with him? How many disagree? About 80% of jk2.

And why you worried about members? Don't we have active members? Don't we have many? And clans are NOT made of quantity, but of quality.

We are stronger than he will ever be. And that is why he hates us, cause he fears us. He knows what we can do... What truth we know. We could easily take his members away. That is why he bans us. He doesn't want to lose all again to us.

So see? We have won. In a way, by banning and spreading lies of us, WE HAVE WON.

Now I fully understand that changing the name will lead to us, in a way, admitting defeat to him. But...So? If we think that, then it will come true. Guys, we can't play this little board game with him. Who cares what he thinks of us. His opinion doesn't matter. The rest of JK2 players' opinions DO matter. We need to worry about the players that come to OUR server. So in changing the name, we are, basically, shrugging off the last connections to Outcast. We prove to the rest of jk2 we finally don't care about him. In changing our name, we emerge from our "cocoon" victorious. Cause he knows that he will never be as grand as us.


So this is how the votes stand so far...

Yes:
Me
Nick
Phoenix
Blackwolf
Abrum
Hektor
Blue
Sebbat? (I wasn't sure if you were joking of being serious. O.o)

No:
BDL? (You said something of him not knowing what he says. I am confused. xD)
Xasomur
Kernow

Indeed, discussion can happen during the voting, or are any of you so scared of being outvoted that you want to use speeches to talk people into stuff first? Let 'em think for themselves, yo?

u keep ingoring me aye?
now i do it more into detail for you then quoting you

mereel wrote:

We LEFT. WE BECAME THIS!!

WRONG!
WE are still ATS, we kicked the tyrans out! WE remain ATS, WE are the Spirtit, We are the clan. We dodnt Left. WE stayed. HE was forced to leave.

mereel wrote:

Guys, this isn't politics. This isn't government. No player has 1 control. And he will not take over jk2. Why you fear that? He can't take over jk2. All he does is stay to his server, and ban all that disagreed with him? How many disagree? About 80% of jk2.

lol... not?
a rumour is more powerful than u think. and not only outcast will spread it.
devy wills pread it soon as well, as he forced us to ban him.
and other idbs will spread that soon as well...
and more and more will believe that.
until we have the proof in our hand. a proof that we are more than outcasts wannabe ats

mereel wrote:

And why you worried about members? Don't we have active members? Don't we have many? And clans are NOT made of quantity, but of quality.

aye.
but the tragedy will be that not even 1 of our recruits in the future will surely know that we arent just the rebels who left outcast, just minor fake of outcasts ats. where remains the quality then? we can have 100 recruits, but no-one will ever know what our origins are... they will have to believe a unreasoned propaganda we give them.
until we get outcast to make it a reasoned fact!

mereel wrote:

We are stronger than he will ever be. And that is why he hates us, cause he fears us.

but no-one will ever know. there is no prove of this, as he just ignores us. reality is perception. as soon as he fulfilled the demands we take from him, stop spreading lies, will show that we are stronger.
otherwise it will remain like it always seemed: ppl leaving cannot harm outcast.
but we didnt leave. outcast was kicked out.
he has to sign that.

mereel wrote:

So see? We have won. In a way, by banning and spreading lies of us, WE HAVE WON.

yes indeed we have won. but no-one except us will ever notice. in the eyes of everyone who will be asked it will look like: we left that clan, and made a new one.
which isnt true, because we are the clan, and he isnt.
they wont ever figure out what are lies from him and what not, because he doesnt let them see the other side of the happenings

mereel wrote:

Now I fully understand that changing the name will lead to us, in a way, admitting defeat to him. But...So? If we think that, then it will come true. Guys, we can't play this little board game with him. Who cares what he thinks of us. His opinion doesn't matter. The rest of JK2 players' opinions DO matter. We need to worry about the players that come to OUR server. So in changing the name, we are, basically, shrugging off the last connections to Outcast. We prove to the rest of jk2 we finally don't care about him. In changing our name, we emerge from our "cocoon" victorious. Cause he knows that he will never be as grand as us.

yes, the reputation we have among the rest of jk2 does matter.
and if we change our name, like it has no significance, they all will think that we left the clan and made a new clan.
that we grew out of ats.
which is not true.
Outcasts regime grew out of ats values. He should change the name then. But we cant force him.
But we can force him to finally admit, that he grew out of it, by fulfillinf our demands, of stopping to spread lies. That is what i want.

I dont say we shouldnt change the name.
But we shouldnt act like it doesnt matter what this conflict where. and how it was. it does matter. because we are the true heritage of former ats. and outcast shall admit that.
if he doesnt, no-one will do. no-one can even see the truth about this anymore.

@ abrum
lol, mereel makes good pointed propaganda for his point... its too late to let them think alone abrum. its just fair to show them both sides...
and the arguments...
read my last reference to you pls...

outcast is not ats...
ats is not outcast.
ats never was outcast
so he cant even be.

he has less right on that name like we have.

but sebs feelings doesnt change what we've writte before.
the only failure of sebbat is it, to not clarify that we are more ats than outcast is.

we only cannot have the same name as outcast. and he wont ever change.
ik ik.
but we cant give him right and give up the true occurings.

i dont say we shouldnt change the name somewhen. but we have to do it more thoughtfully than its wanted by mereel.
its not only the name.
it has too much significance.
and outcast has to admit the status quo, and stop denying the truth about us. he and all those what results out of it, like i explained in the other post.
then we can change, when they ackknowledge what we really are.
when they do, the truth will be saved. and only then.

if you want that, than letting him state the truth is the first step to do also^^
u cant just give him the victory because you are tired. and is so ez for us to take this demands... we are stronger. we are in right.
we have to let him follow our conditions... not we his!

He's not going anywhere, isn't just Outcast that believes what he does, there are the other founders too. He's intent on making a royal, rule following academy where he eliminates all threats, even before they form, which means banning everyone... It's awesomely epic, unless you're a exile or member of O.O or *Flaw or IDBS. <.<

I would like to see a more wise attitude in Outcast, like Dumbledore for Harry Potter series. Maybe the only way to sway Outcast is to target his friends, the other founders.

that is helpless...
i tried with gich... and huracan.
but they are just not interested enough in clan leading. they want to play... or just be left in peace...
so they just nod to what outcast says.

and maximus became pretty much what outcast wanted from him...
i guess power spoiled him as well

You think I'm becoming a 'nodder'? Just curious, not basing the question on anything.

u mean me or sebbo?
sebbo doesnt mean u, he means outcast and the situation.

you are no nodder... you arent interested in such shit... and i can understand it...
you choose the best way for u personally...
that isnt nodding... as soon as outcast will attack your rights... you will abandon him as well...
just like 100s did before xD
until we kicked him out

You know I don't see the point of arguing with you anymore Xasomur. We have 13 good votes that say yes. You guys are voicing you opinions against it (which I am all ok with), but for guys that don't want it, you won't vote.

I spoken my opinion, and it is the opinion of many. So whatever. Say what you want.

If anyone hasn't voted, vote now please.

@Sebbat

I feel your pain dude. I feel your pain.

BlueNinja wrote:

I think we should make another choice to "Wait It Out A Bit Longer" so we can see how everything turns out, for example, Outcast gives up, his forums and server is completely dead, etc. But I don't think we should make this choice yet based on some important points Kernow mentioned.

Helllloooooo? Any takers? Please? I think this would be vital for people to make the right decision.

Meree/EVERYONE - Look at Orange colour
Abrum - Look at cyan colour
EVERYONE - White
Xaso's valuable point (NOT RELATED TO OUTCAST) - Green
Seb - Look for the big capitals saying "SEB!! "....lol!
Blue - guess what colour u've got!

Mereel - yes I understand your point that I care about them: I care about their recruits because they probably won't become like we are now. I look at us and I see US as an rupt in the continous system of ATS. We are unique to the last 3 years of this clan's history. I care about them because the chances of them realising outcast's dictatorship and having the numbers to revolt against it are slim.

You are right Mereel - his server contains just a fraction of jk2 community. But Outcast creates a bubble - another world inside his server. You know he exiles and bans all people who know the truth about them, you know as I have said 90 percent of new players to JK2 settle on his server, because of the ATS fame, and this bubble doesn't have the brutality of other servers or people that are angry in fustration at Outcast's actions. As a result of this the younger generation of ATS - WHO WILL RUN THE GAME IN YEARS TO COME - will be brought up under Outcast's ATS, taught to irrationally hate others and with false opinion of the rest of JK2. THE SEED OF OUTCAST'S PROPAGANDA WILL GROW INTO A VENUS FLY TRAP OF DEATH TO THE REST OF JK2!!! Reality IS perception - what reality will Outcast create?

I know you want to focus on US, and I see your point there also. But we need to carry on the truth to everyone else. The truth must never die in one generation, people must know of what we did to everyone. Changing the name will prevent our claim and substantiation for our arguments.

Mereel wrote:

His opinion doesn't matter. The rest of JK2 players' opinions DO matter. We need to worry about the players that come to OUR server. So in changing the name, we are, basically, shrugging off the last connections to Outcast. We prove to the rest of jk2 we finally don't care about him.

Outcast is one person yes. The rest of JK2 player's opinions matter more than anything yes! But dude! - Outcast's ability to mediate between false and truth, his ability to turn people against others in ideological command IS unrivalled and it is this that in the FUTURE his ATS will be in their prime and their attitudes effect the game in its entireity.

Abrum

Abrum wrote:

Indeed, discussion can happen during the voting, or are any of you so scared of being outvoted that you want to use speeches to talk people into stuff first? Let 'em think for themselves, yo?

I dekarmarized you because what i think you are saying is truly wrong.

If you had a child and you raised it saying that saying 'f u c k' is ok would you prevent and critise people who said 'f u c k' is wrong?

What I am stating in my speeches is what I believe to be factual, I believe it to be intellectually reasoned and well debated with valid consideration.

You are directly calling me scared because I am saying what I think to be morally correct?
You don't make sense...you want people to 'think for themselves' - but surely one can only realise their unique perception of things only when they understand both arguments yes? It is what you did and what everyone should do.

I am giving another perception in hope to alter other people's perception, it is ideologically the essence of argument. You are basically telling me not to argue, and if people don't argue/debate, no moral understanding is ever feasible.
Look at Skambak...thinking one thing - then he listens to Xaso's side and he changes his moral outlook.
I suggest that instead of insulting the moral debatists here, that you teach people to 'think for themselves' by providing various moral outlooks. You are supporting a one-sided outlook system in two ways. By insulting/preventing the ones who go against the grain for postive reasons, and by supporting Outcast and his regime for whatever personal reasons you have.

Now that this point has been raised. If we change our name, are we to become a completely new clan? Whether to symbolize our 'evolution' as Mereel calls it or to get rid of Outcast for ourselves only, changing the name is more or less a new clan.
And Abrum - I think you will stay in a clan where you have administrative position and free modding reign in Outcast's server and thus you will go to Outcast's clan. Why are we considering your vote when you intend to abandon us politically if the poll passes?
Also a lot of friendships will be inevtiably stretched with this change:
Hora, Seb, Skam to Herny.
Dmraz to Kyle.
Xaso and Nick and myself to Gich.
Many to Argentino.
Who will stay? Who will leave? Have you thought of this?

Xasomur wrote:

but the tragedy will be that not even 1 of our recruits in the future will surely know that we arent just the rebels who left outcast, just minor fake of outcasts ats. where remains the quality then? we can have 100 recruits, but no-one will ever know what our origins are... they will have to believe a unreasoned propaganda we give them.
until we get outcast to make it a reasoned fact!

Xaso asks us another question? We want to delete and abandon the clan's history? You want me not to mention Outcast? Ok Mereel I won't. I'll mention every other damn member in the clan that has left a legendary mark. Hundreds of players who left their legendary mark in JK2 as an ATS. I want to unify to these people and be part of their history. I dont want to be in a new clan that starts afresh, I want to stay in this clan that is having its first fresh and free breath in 3 years. But ultimately, this change deletes a clan that (excluding Outcast) was an amazing comunity. We want to move away from THIS?

SEB!
Seb I just don't agree with you. I believe we should believe what we were brought up to beleive, and I was brought up in this game with the knowledge that ATS was a community of friendship, a community of fairplay and equality. NOT Outcast's little doll house.
What do you think of my proposal? - my many pointed one on page 3.

Blue
Blue I think everyone needs to know the consequences of changing the name. Both good and bad. I think Mereel and Nick both give very good reasons for changing the name. But the arguments against (Xaso and mine) are being drowned in the flow of posts. People aren't reading everything and they really need to get the motive too, this is the most radical change.
In answer to your post yes we should wait at the very least. A rushed decision leads to potential regret a lacking thought process.

Well dude, seems like you love argument. Point is, people are tired of this, they get home form school or work and want to have some friendly fun. As stated, Outcast will not give up, there being 2 ATS servers isn't right. Outcast is a founder, simple as that. You guys are upholding what was advertised all these years in the ATS server. Sadly, Outcast owns ATS.

You guys own what it was supposed to uphold, wisdom and fair play beyond that of a single person, even if that person shows admirable interest. Wisdom and fair play have many names, ATS is a clan founded by Outcast, you guys are like a church surrounding what glory Outcast created, you don't have to name what you believe in by the name of the 'God' (not Outcast) of it, the base of it. Things change, a dictator pleased a peoples' desire for peace and fair play, but never did the dictator in him die.

Many perished from the story to let this go on, mystifying new and some old players alike. Your shield, the shield you where given for bearing qualities of fair play, will never leave you, even if you only showed those qualities for moments. Whilst your shield says ATS, the one that created ATS has given up on you, you hold on to your beliefs.

There was once a time that a grand clan called ATS was in single unity of it's beliefs, good, close friends played happily together daily, wise, loyal Kernow Pilgrim, strong Mereel and many others of unique trait.

You have all reached a bottomless pit.

There are two arguments form 2 sides, you have grabbed a hold of the wall of a grand, never-ending fall and set up camp there, as a team. Outcast has also fallen, he is on the other side. He glares at old members and friends, as if their very hearts where shards of mutiny.

Outcast is afraid to cross to your side, you have ventured bravely to his side many times, only to be pushed off. What does he hate so much? Why does he fear what he believes in, why...why... "Cowardice", yells one man bravely. "You haven't the heart nor courage to destroy us, do you Outcast!?", the man continued, only met by silence and pouring wind.

Outcast turns to his fellow founders and me, he twists and turns things to me, saying for sure what he cannot know, what he could only know having met my old friends, now exiled.
I soon find my own paths along the walls, weeding in and out carefully, answering any who call to me. I am trusted by most people, Outcast still believes in whatever I do for him, I still believe in my creations and peace.

It's been a long time, I am not on either side of the wall, separated still by nothingness. I have set up my own camp, where I am sending messages to all sides. I still have friends. I often think to myself how 2-sided this story is, but how can I come to a conclusion whilst I am in a story I write about?

The wise man will hold on to what he believes in, while bestowing himself with the strength of his friends. A wise man will hold the past, present and future in mutual thought and word for his friends. A wise man knows that he has his strengths and is blessed with weaknesses, one with weakness is one humble to his strengths, one that will keep improving himself.

I am so confused. I've seen so much while keeping my neutral ground. I cannot process all this. A see my friends having trouble with Outcast, things aren't peaceful, they wont be until Outcast gives in to his weakness, until he lets himself improve, just once will do it... My friends don't know what to do, they refuse to bomb Outcast's foothold on the wall, but they keep visiting, spying...

It has to be me who does this, what? I don't know. I have to do something. While Outcast gains power, I do also. But I'm losing trust with my friends. Human existance is what we make of it, what our friends teach us, what matters to us most making a voice. My friends fulfill this, they note it. It's time for me to bring a little of this to Outcast, to show him what it means to be human and have friends outside our comfort zone, at first. I have what it takes, I've lost trust in many people, by stereotype, like Outcast.

But what if I lead Outcast into something he doesn't understand? I can't worry about that now though.

I'm hearing rumors that my friends are having to invest themselves in people who Outcast deems untrustworthy, as do I. But that doesn't matter either at the moment. They proved themselves much time ago, when they became members of that old clan called ATS.

So, all things taken into account, I have no choice. I will talk to Outcast, I'll lead him to my friends, reassuring him that his men are safe, his base too. I want him to look into their eyes, I want him to speak from his heart, not his experience. I hope that he will heed me, if he does not, my friends will have to uphold their own beliefs of fairplay, they can say that there was once something good, honest, fair and unified by it's people. That there was once a good place for many people growing up, old and young alike. There was once a good place called ATS.

Let Outcast hear this, there was ONCE a place of unity known as ATS...

Whether it is such today is not the question, the ones who question it's existance are being foolish.