|Yes(why)|| 94% ||[ 15 ]|
|No(why)|| 6% ||[ 1 ]|
|Total Votes : 16|
Posts : 2440
|Subject: The "Name" Wed 10 Feb 2010, 12:05 pm|| |
First topic message reminder :
Guys, I know this was coming soon, so I think I should go ahead and talk about it before we go any farther into other topics.
I been thinking, this whole mess is because of a "name". Alot of grudges, lags, lames, insulting, and immaturity over a "name". I understand completely why we are defending our title, but I will explain my side of things, since this has been on my mind for a long while.
I suggest we get a new name. That means new tags, new ranks (if any ranks, but that won't be discussed unless we agree on a new name), and some changes.
Now, the reasons: For one, as I just mentioned, Outcast is hating us, and acting immature because we have the clan tag ]=ATS=[. Now I know we shouldn't give in and let him keep the tag, cause then we are admitting ATS is his clan. But look of what trouble this is getting us. First lames, then the lag wars, then the insults, and now we are trying to patch things up. But they continue to act immature, and being greedy. So to end this all, and we can leave him to his server, and we don't have to be bothered by him ever again, is to change our name. This would end all.
Another reason is what we are. Yes we are ATS. But maybe we are more. We continue saying a clan is the members, so maybe we are more than ATS. Maybe we are better. Maybe we CAN be more. We already have a new start and a new beginning from splitting from Outcast, but maybe we should change our name to represent our change. To show we are more than what we seem. If you can't get what I am saying, I am saying we outgrew ATS. xD
For example, we are a butterfly. When in ATS we were the caterpillar. Now we were the cocoon when we split from Outcast, and started growing into something more brilliant as we grew closer and closer together, and our clan grew. Maybe with a name change, we will show how much as a clan we GREW.
Another reason is ..... well I am a bit tired of people associating us with Outcast, cause we have the name ATS. But that is a personal reason, so you can ignore this.
Well I like to hear people's opinions. Post your opinion and your vote. I am putting the poll to last a week, so vote by then please.
Posts : 4987
|Subject: Re: The "Name" Sat 13 Feb 2010, 9:03 pm|| |
I'm back from some "break", so about a thousand messages have been posted, so i didn't read all, but here is my point about this case :
Since we left Outcast, and decided to take ATS for members, many things have changed :
_ The lead is new, and now not controled by founders, but by a council, composed of admins, forum moideratos, and clan commoners.
_ Many new rules have been brought to the clan, both in server and forum, and also in clan values ( new rank, new lead, server has different policy of traiting abusers )
_ the old ennemies of ATS are now supposed to be friends, and now we attach more importance to the game skills than before.
So in one hand, changing the clan name would have all its mean, because what we have done is changing things so that it's different of outcast's clan, so different from the ATS we have known.
In another hand, how much time have we spent debating against outcast, to get it to reason ? We have gone to a war with another clan, to keep Values and a Name, because We Are this Name ! So, changing name in this way would mean quit all effots that have been done to keep what we are today, the Real ATS, the old one.
So i think that both sides are justified, what is to see, is what the majority wants.
Personnaly, i didn't defend the name, but more the fact that the policy kept by outcast was wrong, and that it was the members making the clan, and first we didn't change nothing, but no leaders until we decided how will be council.
Now that all these have changed, it's like we've made a new clan. So it's justified that we change name.
So i am now "ok" to change name, now that it's really justified. ( no just because i hate outcast ... )
Posts : 1450
|Subject: Re: The "Name" Sun 14 Feb 2010, 12:49 am|| |
@Xaso and Kern i read all the posts took me about half a hour to read them all that i hadn't read beacuse i read them all carefully. And not for being an ass but most of the arguements for not changing our name was releated to Outcast. I know Outcast had a big influence in ATS history. But by changing our name we doesn't necessary lose the history i think we should make a locked topic on the forum with ATS story so they can read all about our story before we changed our name. So people can see why we changed the name beacuse Outcast was studborn and tryed to keep a name which he lost after my oppinion.
But the way i see the only way we can get rid of Outcast and all this war between the two ATS clan atm is changing our name and move on.
Posts : 10542
|Subject: Re: The "Name" Sun 14 Feb 2010, 6:41 am|| |
It took me 6 hours to read and respond to about 2 pages of posts in critical and argumentative detail last night.....
Grimmjow you do realise what I want to show in talkin about Outcast? Its not about him, not about what he has done, not about what he thinks or what he believes. Its about what he can do! What his ability as a leader and cunning lier for a famous and attractive name gives him the power to accomplish. If our clan becomes successful and florishes then shoot me down.
But if we get new members I'm willing to bet they've been through Outcast and rest assured they will have a negative pre-disposition of us. They won't know who we are, what we do and what he have done, how bodly we spoke and how fiercly we defended our rights. They will judge us before we even have met them, I wonder if I would've hated Boss before being told to irrationally hate. And rest assured if we receive these members second hand they will be angry at Outcast - we will accept these haters of ATS and what? We will become as arrogant and jelous as sterotyped FOD and O.O. It all starts over again. :/
- Xasomure wrote:
- he will have to stop telling lies to our old ats mates. stop hiding our existance towards the newbies, and stop spreading a bad fame, stop banning us for no reasons.
Xaso makes a good point - why don't we make a contract with him?
What have got to lose from making a contract with Outcast? Pride? Respect? Reputation? You obviously think all ATS is and ever will be is Outcast, and you don't care about this right? So make a contract, he wants the name all for himself and we want some form of agreement that our efforts and existance will not be put under a false propaganda to the new generation of JK2. Why would you say no? he will either show his inconsolability to others once again OR we will be sucessful and gain what we always wanted. A win/win situation.
- Nick wrote:
- It's in his best interest to continue doing things the way he always does: ignoring everyone who tries to solve problems with him, claiming authority, and carrying everyone else blindly into the future reality he has fabricated to suite his desires. If I thought that it were possible to secure a real "contract" with him, I would have nothing to lose in letting you guys pursue this objective. But I don't make myself vulnerable by asking for a treaty from someone I suspect will deny, marginalize, and belittle me.
Nick at the end of the day we are placing this down to giving up before the try. Outcast wants the name! What better way to call us legitimate than to cast us off fully. He hates our way - he hates that we don't respond in anger, he hates that we don't insult and abuse. He hates that we are promoting truth and reality to everyone, and you yourself says he fears us. What better way to get rid of OUR methods and OUR rivalry and just claim to the name.
- Maxmimus wrote:
- ts easy my young frieend, all of u who wants a new system, or whatever u want, can found a new kind of clan........let us die in our flag
This extract from a private conversation I had with Max substantiates it is all he wants. They just want to die under THEIR flag which they created. Yes I'm going against what I beleive but at the end of the day both people want freedom. Despite Outcast and Max not showing it you know it to be truth, they will lunge at our oppertunity.
We fear the consequences of asking him for terms!?? And no-one fears the consequences of changing the name?!!? Lol! Because it is soo much more beneficial to us? Because we have 'so much more to gain'? Much will be lost, changing the name is a personal and selfish self-satisfaction brought about from weariness and general hate for Outcast, not ATS.
ATS is fair play and camaraderie and THAT is freedom and equality. I said we haven't evolved as in radically alienated ourselves from ATS, but we have extended the meanining in a more practical and realist representaton through our actions. I see your point now Nick - but I still think this action retains a selfish motive - where it has benefits for US (Everyone in this forum) and thats it! Will the future members have benefit? No because they most probably would have already been subjugated under the ATS banner.
This action is a self-proof to ourselves only! No-one else cares or gives a monkeys. They just see a bunch of people contending for the name and what that symbolizes to them, it symbolizes that they gave up. I'm being OBJECTIVE and thinking outside our own personal and moral problems. So much more hast and thus mistakes will be made in a decision that no-one fully understands the consequences of.
- Nick wrote:
- Outcast can run his clan the way he wants, they would say. We would have been confused because we didn't think ATS was just Outcast. But it was. We were all in an imaginary community that thought ATS was something that it was not. It was not equality and unequivocal fairness back then, and it still isn't today as they continue the dictatorial tradition. I have abandoned any sentimental value to the ATS name during this disillusionment. It is not because I am just "tired of conflict" and I am "sub-consciously [just wanting] to get away from Outcast," it is because from my perspective there is no need for conflict and because I consciously just want to get away from Outcast. Because ATS was, is, and will continue to BE Outcast.
I can see your percpective and I can't say I don't agree with you. I see now that it isn't just tiredness and weariness, people have lost setimental attachment to ATS. Because you realise Outcast is a wall that simply cannot be scaled, and this wall is just too strong willed and too well supported to fall on its head. This wall has invested too much pride and personality into his creation that he cannot give it up. I understand that it in the physical (or virtual xD) universe we occupy it cannot be done to secure Outcast to a demorcratic system.
My only reason for keeping the name - apart from my whole topic on the Soul and Jerusalem (please read that guys if u didn't its actually quite historically intresting), is because I just don't want to see history repeated. We are unique, we are special and we deserve to go beyond something that inevitably is attached to Outcast yes. But somehow in some non-violent manner I wanted to destroy him, for what he did, for what he is doing and what he will keep continuing to do. My passion for keeping the name is care and consideration for all the new players to this game, who WILL be attracted to the ATS banner and who have a good chance of being taught to irrationally hate, and who have a slim chance of realising and succesfully reforming the system - like we did.
- Nick wrote:
- I think we have shown our strength, and that most of us feel disillusioned by the false reality given to us by Outcast in the past. The usefulness of the ATS name has passed us, and now what is important are our values and our actions. Moving forward, my opinion is that the easiest solution is to focus internally, live our values, and welcome into our clan new people who share those values.
Yes i agree, although again i refer to our own selfish private desires blinding us from the potential consequences. I don't like falseness, and Outcast promotes a community - I see nothing communal about the system which sub-consiously dictates them all.
My point on getting terms still stands though. The main one - which we all would approve of is - For their forum and server to make it quite plain and declared that 'ATS is a group of friends under the pernament rule of its founders forever. - They by default contain more knoweldge and experiance and regardless of their activity and/or morals they will always lead ATS'. This is the most subtle and potentially accepting message I could imagine them taking - it basically suggests a dictatorship.
- Nick wrote:
- I think that he gets his power from others walking into the trap of treating his opinion and his words as though they have value. This includes asking him to respect us; he will feed off this acknowledgement of our caring about his being respectful, and he will deny us to further emphasize his power. But we have the advantage in our home territory, and I think if we stop going to their server and forums, we will better be able to legitimize ourselves in our own eyes and in the eyes of people who visit our community.
I reluntantly agree with you - but like i said the RIGHT terms give us better chance. This does in essence come down to our self-sacrifice of pride. It is hypicritical to say that we don't care what THEY and their recruits think but we won't make the necessary moves it takes to POTENTIALLY acheive a peace if it means that we will PROBABLY be insulted for it. But we don't care right?
I am not Outcast - as such I am willing to sacrifice a bit of my pride in potential exhange for peace, satisfaction and understanding in some form.
Posts : 1450
|Subject: Re: The "Name" Sun 14 Feb 2010, 7:53 am|| |
Kern i don't really get it u mean that the clan name ATS shows all what we stand for? Is a clan name ATS worth having this trouble for? We are united as a another clan now playing after our ideals. As i see it the name ATS aint needed for us to show who we are and what we stand for.
And we would never become as fod or o.o u guys aint that type of persons to become like that i can say that for sure
Posts : 12895
|Subject: Re: The "Name" Sun 14 Feb 2010, 10:32 am|| |
well i think the major misunderstanding here grimm is, that you see "only" a start in it. For me and kern, and i thought for many more, this one is a "result". a result of all the shit that happened to ats. we are a heritage of all the experiences that clan has, and all whats related to that clan. and we want to maintain that connection somehow.
a new name lets many ppl, even from our own clan, forget this connection.
and a new start only to leave the past behind is not what we should aim for.
we rather want a complete handling of the past, keeping its true memory alive as best as we can.
the name is not only the biggest symbol... its the most manifold symbol we have...
Posts : 3079
|Subject: Re: The "Name" Sun 14 Feb 2010, 10:59 am|| |
Kernow I understand that you and Xaso think that there's a chance in securing a contract with Outcast, and that even if he denies it there is some potential benefit in it. I simply disagree.
I highly doubt Outcast will agree to it, and honestly I think we are more powerful without him treating us with kindness. He is not a good ally. It is like the United States supporting Israel. Israel is doing terrible things to Palestinians and controlling a large portion of the U.S. media to make it seem like all Palestinians are terrorists. In the Middle Eastern world, America is often hated for its support of Israel which oppresses Palestinians; Israeli occupation of Palestine is a major terrorism recruiting point and justification for attacks on America or Americans. I view our clan much like America, and his clan much like Israel. If we are on friendly terms with him, if we have a treaty with him, all of his negative actions are associated with us in some way. With all the terrible things he does, how can you feel good about yourself making an agreement with him for our own benefit?
And it doesn't even matter if he agrees to it. It's Outcast guys. He will go back on his word at the slightest sign of trouble. And I certainly will not vote to go back to the ATS name at that point, which completely defeats the point of the whole contract operation and in fact leaves us having been manipulated by Outcast and having lost the argument.
It is much more prudent to wipe his influence and meaning from our clan right now, and focus on ourselves. It is selfish, but being selfish to further a self that promotes good values is not a bad thing. Everything everyone does in life is selfish. People who sacrifice themselves for the good of others do so because it brings them happiness or peace of mind knowing they have done the right thing. Everyone makes every choice they make because it's the best choice for them to make. Selfishness - or perhaps more accurately, the lack of it - is an illusion.
I guess my point is: what do we gain if he is nice to us? No old players respect him (except current ATS members in his clan). New players only believe him under two situations:
1) They join his server first and never venture elsewhere.
2) They join his server and also try other servers, AND when the new player has interactions with Outcast's enemies, they find that the things he said about them are true.
I admit that new players in situation 1 are a lost cause until they see the truth with their own eyes. But the vast majority of new players are going to try multiple servers. Our server is higher on the list anyway. The only reason to have fear of situation 2 is if we don't believe in our ability to live our values. I know that I live my values and that many of you do. There are some members who need to work on this. But that's the point of the clan. We should embrace this challenge to excel above other clans. Outcast was not capable of doing this, which is why his clan always stagnates at a certain level; his claims are false and deceitful, limiting his potential. But we are genuine about our desire to create a truly free, equal, and friendly clan. I think it's clear that we will succeed. So why attach ourselves positively to Outcast? He is a bad guy in a lot of ways, we should not associate with him. Having to keep track of his holding to a contract is a lot of unnecessary work just to get a good word from a corrupt player. It's not worth it. Let's focus on ourselves, showing those who visit us that we are good people.
The name does not make us. If you are so attached to the name that you cannot do without it, then what does that say about what you think we are? Just a name? We don't need the name, it does not make us, and this particular name has a lot of bad things associated with it. Symbols are only useful when they symbolize the proper thing. For me, ATS does not do this anymore.
Posts : 10542
|Subject: Re: The "Name" Mon 15 Feb 2010, 5:12 am|| |
Quick question that substantiates the lacking potential for peace after the division.
ATS equals Outcast now? Then we'll have no moral problem treating every ATS we see like Outcast. :/
Like I said we will evolve into a clan whos reputation will be like FOD or IDBS.
___________________IT'S A TRAP!Onen hag Oll
Posts : 12895
|Subject: Re: The "Name" Mon 15 Feb 2010, 5:45 am|| |
and i want to say that a contract with them will not make US coming closer to them... in neither meaning of that word.
we have nothing to give but a name we have to offer anyway, and a behaviour we provide ourself.
a contract would keep them more under control
the namechange alone wont keep them from discrediting us unreasoned.
a namechange is only a sign for us, and for nobody else, only indirect.
i dont say we should make an alliance, we should make peace i said.
i dont see why we shouldnt at least give it a try
Posts : 1450
|Subject: Re: The "Name" Mon 15 Feb 2010, 6:13 am|| |
I agree with nick in what he's saying kinda the same things i thought of when i wrote my posts in this topic, nick is just better explaining xD
Posts : 2440
|Subject: Re: The "Name" Mon 15 Feb 2010, 7:09 am|| |
- Grimmjow wrote:
- I agree with nick in what he's saying kinda the same things i thought of when i wrote my posts in this topic, nick is just better explaining xD
Nick is just better at explaining than we are Grimmjow. xD
Posts : 1450
|Subject: Re: The "Name" Mon 15 Feb 2010, 7:33 am|| |
Posts : 4987
|Subject: Re: The "Name" Mon 15 Feb 2010, 7:52 am|| |
Posts : 10542
|Subject: Re: The "Name" || |